Netherlands and religious tolerance

[tusaki]

I'm from the Netherlands, and I don't know what scares me more: Right wing xenophobic intollerant discriminating delusional muslim terrorists or right wing xenophobic intollerant discriminating delusional white power nationalists such as you.

[bishop]

Originally posted by tusaki, I'm from the Netherlands, and I don't know what scares me more: Right wing xenophobic intollerant discriminating delusional muslim terrorists or right wing xenophobic intollerant discriminating delusional white power nationalists such as you.

flip the coin.. heads is islamofascist. tails is american fascist. they're not much different at all.

[Sodfather]

Originally posted by bishop, flip the coin.. heads is islamofascist. tails is american fascist. they're not much different at all.

And try to look at that same coin from an angle and you're as a good as some schmuck with a "pussy" sign on his back. :(

[bishop]

true, that's why it's always bad to be an extremist. :)

[rmnunez]

I saw a note over a million EUers just delivered their signed petition to Blair and other EU heads of state demanding the inclusion of some reference to Christianity by their governments be allowed in the preamble of Giscard D'Estaing's proposed EU constitution. That the number of petition endorsers swelled in the aftermath of Van Gogh's slaughter, that the French government is firmly opposed and the Pope mighty pleased with the ongoing petition drive.

This doesn't seem like extremism to me, and it sure doesn't seem like an insignificant fraction of the population either. I'd bet any amount the Eastern Europeans plus Greece, probably Ireland and Italy, likely would include the reference if optional. The British seem to suggest this is impossible at this late a stage in the constitution's drafting. Giscard noted in his draft of the preamble how he sought "to be persuaded of the need to include any reference to religion".

[castille]

The Netherlands was never ultra-tolerant. A lot of people over there mention the Dutch hate all successful people, so that's intolerance.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by rmnunez, I saw a note over a million EUers just delivered their signed petition to Blair and other EU heads of state demanding the inclusion of some reference to Christianity by their governments be allowed in the preamble of Giscard D'Estaing's proposed EU constitution. That the number of petition endorsers swelled in the aftermath of Van Gogh's slaughter, that the French government is firmly opposed and the Pope mighty pleased with the ongoing petition drive. This doesn't seem like extremism to me, and it sure doesn't seem like an insignificant fraction of the population either. I'd bet any amount the Eastern Europeans plus Greece, probably Ireland and Italy, likely would include the reference if optional. The British seem to suggest this is impossible at this late a stage in the constitution's drafting. Giscard noted in his draft of the preamble how he sought "to be persuaded of the need to include any reference to religion".

Anything we can read ourselves, nunez? When you go off topic, you should at least give other debaters a handle...

[rmnunez]

Western liberals are too concerned over white “racism” as they seek to integrate Muslims in the EU. They start off assuming integration is the only way to go, but we know Muslims don’t see things the same way. The more devout among them lament every aspect of western culture that impinges on their customs and practices (consider the headscarve controversy in France). I doubt any Islamic fundamentalist would be at all satisfied with integrating the infidels. In places where we know Islamic fundamentalists have influence on government policies there’s no evidence of any effort to integrate non-Muslims (in Saudi Arabia, for example, you can be deported if seen wearing a crucifix or religious medal by a Muslim). Examples of initiatives among Muslim governments towards integration are sorely lacking.

In June the Italians foiled a plan by al Qaeda-linked Muslims in Italy to blow up a XIVth century cathedral in Bologna. The target was chosen because it contained a medieval fresco depicting Mohammed burning in hell. Seems to me a more medieval regard for Muslims might be wise.

[Nono]

rmnunez, what you're saying is that Muslim society itself lacks the tolerance that Western liberals preach on Muslims' behalf. I think that's true, and the reason is that Mulsim society hasn't experienced the "Enlightenment" that Europe achieved several centuries ago.

One of the Enlightenment's points was that Church and State should be kept separate. That's what makes people so reluctant to put references to Christianity in any European constitution -- all that blood spillt down the centuries.

When the petition-signers talk about "Christianity", I think they mean it in cultural terms: as opposed to Muslim culture. They don't -- precisely -- wish to lose what the Englightenment brought them, what the Muslims lack.

As for the headscarf thing in France, the idea was precisely to free Muslim girls from the constraints imposed by their elders. The hope is that while the actual immigrants will find it hard to embrace Western culture, their children won't. And that has been the experience in North America, the Antipodes, etc. -- the second generation integrates into the culture.

The problem in France, for example, is that Muslims largely constitute a disadvantaged underclass, with young people suffering discrimination (i.e. intolerance) and high unemployment. This makes them more willing to listen to Osama's siren song.

[rmnunez]

Right, Nono, the Enlightment, like Protestantism, Darwinism and other uniquely western experiences have not been shared by Muslims. Islam requires the mass be only in Arabic (like Catholics until after Vatican II). The Koran must only be written in Arabic and Allah's word cannot be rendered in any other language, just as monks illuminating across Europe felt about the Bible and Latin before Guttemberg. Disagreeent with religious authority once carried a death sentence or tongue cutting in Europe too, now its only where Islamic fundamentalists hold control.

The church/state separation is something which has evolved. For a long time after the fall of Rome the only ones who knew how to write were the monks and priests. They rendered the law and issued the sentence. Eventually the Catholic Church recognized temporal authority rested in the sovereign's hands. Gradually governments wrested from the Church monopolies in marriage, burial, birth and other essentials. With the Church's cutting down to size other faiths could emerge challenging religious interpretations. This has barely happened in Islam. Nowadays many completely modern Muslim governments still enforce with ordinary police breaches of religious law. A woman plaintiff's word in an ordinary contract dispute (if they were allowed to even contract) is not worth as much as the male defendant's because the clerics say so.

I think Muslims have some catching up to do with their religion before they reach the levels of enlightened tolerance and humanist integration thuroughly ingrained in western culture through Christianity. However modern means of communication and the Christian experience suggest this will take less than the 6 centuries lead the west has on them in matters of religion.