Fallujah: 800 Dead Civilians

[PatrickHenry]

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid...4/11/17/1524239

the official with the Red Cross does claim that the 800 number is the most conservative estimate they would put out to the media at this time. However, he did go on to say in that interview that this is extremely conservative, that this doesn't take into account people buried under the rubble of homes, and other horrendous things that have happened there. This was a number taken solely from people coming out. This is just what they have tabulated so far from refugees coming and reporting to them, and keeping track of the names and tabulating it that way. So, of course, he expects that number to be far, far higher. This is continuing to be confirmed by accounts being told by refugees that I have been interviewing who continue to stream out of Fallujah or the camps set up in the desert around the city. One man in particular reported that there were so many dead bodies on the ground, no one could bury them and the stench was unbearable. He said -- he claimed that U.S. soldiers were dropping some of the -- excuse me -- some of the bodies into the Euphrates River that runs right nearby Fallujah and that other bodies were being pulled by tanks to the soccer stadium and left there. So, as time drags on, as the siege drags on in Fallujah, we expect more of these type of stories to be coming out.

How long will this thing continue? Is this the way the US "liberates" the Iraqi people?

Hey Bush: You broke it, you own it, bumbler...

[PatrickHenry]

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid...4/11/17/1524239

the official with the Red Cross does claim that the 800 number is the most conservative estimate they would put out to the media at this time. However, he did go on to say in that interview that this is extremely conservative, that this doesn't take into account people buried under the rubble of homes, and other horrendous things that have happened there. This was a number taken solely from people coming out. This is just what they have tabulated so far from refugees coming and reporting to them, and keeping track of the names and tabulating it that way. So, of course, he expects that number to be far, far higher. This is continuing to be confirmed by accounts being told by refugees that I have been interviewing who continue to stream out of Fallujah or the camps set up in the desert around the city. One man in particular reported that there were so many dead bodies on the ground, no one could bury them and the stench was unbearable. He said -- he claimed that U.S. soldiers were dropping some of the -- excuse me -- some of the bodies into the Euphrates River that runs right nearby Fallujah and that other bodies were being pulled by tanks to the soccer stadium and left there. So, as time drags on, as the siege drags on in Fallujah, we expect more of these type of stories to be coming out.

How long will this thing continue? Is this the way the US "liberates" the Iraqi people?

Hey Bush: You broke it, you own it, bumbler...

[Dieval]

And you believe this?

[macnpat]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid...4/11/17/1524239 How long will this thing continue? Is this the way the US "liberates" the Iraqi people? Hey Bush: You broke it, you own it, bumbler...

I'd rather be dead and my cold corpse dragged by a tank than live under the taliban and be beaten with car antennaes by young men, or have my breasts cut off or shot in the head because some friggij goon didn't think I was a good Muslim woman.

Go Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless ya.

[rmnunez]

Eight hundred dead civilians after a week of house-to-house urban warfare in a city of over a quarter million seems remarkably low to me. It would be interesting to compare that figure with past numbers after urban warfare similarly sized cities.

Before the hoopla begins over Yankee inhumanity, do be mindful civilian casualties are permissible under the pertinent conventions when resulting from attacks on legitimate targets. Given that the insurgent/terrorists occupied civilian homes, kept arsenals in religious and other public buildings and used civilians as human shields, it is easy to anticipate situations may have arisen where civilians could be quite properly shot to reach the terrorists. Also that in some cases they must have been indistinguishable from genuine insurgent/terrorists.

[Gorgo]

If it's one person, it's murder.

[gr8fuldaniel]

What is really sick is that, civilians were trying to flee the city before the assault began, were turned back, another war crime in itself.

[Technosoul]

Here is your choice.

If you want Iraq to have a fair election we must make it safe for observes to monitor the election and for people in Iraq to go to the voting booth. The claim is that this city is not yet a safe place in which to conduct such an election. That is based on the clear facts that they keep setting bomb traps for anyone from the outside world, as well as taking them hostage for beheading purposes.

If our troops do not gain complete control of that city and simular hot spots we cannot (they cannot) go foreward with the expected election activiites.

Simple as that.

What is the other alternative? It would be to give up and pull out all the troops, and allow the people in Iraq to establish a government based on the old natual selection process that Dawin mentioned - where the meanest and strongest among them would end up in control of Iraq and all it's oil money. And that would in do doubt result in someone being their leader who hates America more then Saddam did.

Now they gave the women and children and other non-combatants a chance to depart from the city before they conducted the current raids, those who did not leave knew what was coming, that they would be wasted or stood a very good chance of being shot or bombed. What did they expect?

This is not to suggest the Red Cross is not trying to establish some sort of real count, but those who stood their ground did so because they wish to block the future of Iraq as a democratic government, and if they selected to be "human shields" for those in that city that are killing our men in uniform, then they are not really victims of any abuse of power on our part.

We have a choice, make sure we can hold those free elections or just leave the country and let the mean guys there gain control.

Take you pick.

Technosoul.

[bullshitdetector]

That was a very insightful post, Technosoul and I agree with you 100%. What I haven't been able to do is decipher what the left wants between freedom for Iraqis or another dictatorship like Saddams regime for Iraq. Clearly there cannot be a change for Iraqi's without the use of force.

[Technosoul]

Bull, what you must understand is that we have two kinds of left wing sources. One of them is a busness.

Example, a news source like Democarcy Now or the left wing radio station KPFK depends on money to stay in busness, their job is to provide anti- right wing information to the mainstream people who have liberal leanings. Now during the Clinton years those bussnesss were struggling to stay afloat, as they depend upon donations or subscriptions to keep going, but during the Bush years the donations to them skyrocketed. In an odd paradox, the left wing bussnesses depend on people like Bush for their income and success.

Then you have the everyday people who have nothing to gain from voicing their opinions, (like me). Now I am moe left wing when it comes to debates about the environment, and I orginally did not support the war on Iraq (even when it was popular by most Democrats). But that was back then. Each moment has it's own reality. And the reality of this moment is what I was attempting to state as I see it. I cannot support the busnesses of the left wing when they detour from the reality of the moment at hand.

Crystal clear thinking is paramount now, and we need to do what it takes to wrap up this Iragi situation. And how can we now have any other objective in mind, as a united USA, then to make sure those elections are conducted and we have someone dependable in power there so we can leave once and for all? Why prolong the misery, we have allowed them to protest in the streets, we have allowed our reporters to show that, let them show their real opinions at a voting booth instead of just in the streets with a mob-rule method of expression.

[bullshitdetector]

Originally posted by Technosoul, Bull, what you must understand is that we have two kinds of left wing sources. One of them is a busness. Example, a news source like Democarcy Now or the left wing radio station KPFK depends on money to stay in busness, their job is to provide anti- right wing information to the mainstream people who have liberal leanings. Now during the Clinton years those bussnesss were struggling to stay afloat, as they depend upon donations or subscriptions to keep going, but during the Bush years the donations to them skyrocketed. In an odd paradox, the left wing bussnesses depend on people like Bush for their income and success. Then you have the everyday people who have nothing to gain from voicing their opinions, (like me). Now I am moe left wing when it comes to debates about the environment, and I orginally did not support the war on Iraq (even when it was popular by most Democrats). But that was back then. Each moment has it's own reality. And the reality of this moment is what I was attempting to state as I see it. I cannot support the busnesses of the left wing when they detour from the reality of the moment at hand. Crystal clear thinking is paramount now, and we need to do what it takes to wrap up this Iragi situation. And how can we now have any other objective in mind, as a united USA, then to make sure those elections are conducted and we have someone dependable in power there so we can leave once and for all? Why prolong the misery, we have allowed them to protest in the streets, we have allowed our reporters to show that, let them show their real opinions at a voting booth instead of just in the streets with a mob-rule method of expression.

Well Technosoul you are I aren't as different from each each other as I originally thought. With the exception of the war, of which I supported in the beginning and still do, and the environment of which I don't believe we are tapping into enough of our natural resources; the rest of what you posted I agree with 100%. There is a business part of the left, and it's too bad people take that business too seriously as fact because I honestly believe they're being hoodwinked.

[kharmajunkie]

Originally posted by macnpat, [ I'd rather be dead and my cold corpse dragged by a tank than live under the taliban and be beaten with car antennaes by young men, or have my breasts cut off or shot in the head because some friggij goon didn't think I was a good Muslim woman. Go Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless ya.

When did the Taliban control Iraq? Hussein was a secularist who repressed religion whenever possible. Would you have called the Japanese "nazis" during WW2?

[Texans 4 Furors]

Originally posted by macnpat,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (macnpat,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-PatrickHenry, http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid...4/11/17/1524239 How long will this thing continue? Is this the way the US "liberates" the Iraqi people? Hey Bush: You broke it, you own it, bumbler...

I'd rather be dead and my cold corpse dragged by a tank than live under the taliban and be beaten with car antennaes by young men, or have my breasts cut off or shot in the head because some friggij goon didn't think I was a good Muslim woman.

Go Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless ya.[/b][/quote]
I'm pretty sure God wouldn't bless a mass murderer...just my opinion .If people want to rise up against their oppressors, that's fine. If you want to volunteer to help them, that's fine. But one tyrant sticking it to the tyrant that it created 40 years agoi is just satanic infighting and nothing more. Interesting you get a kick out of it.

[bullshitdetector]

If my dad buys me a hunting rifle and 40 years down the road I decide to take out my local post office with it, is he the tyrant? Is the police department the tyrants when they come to arrest me?

[Texans 4 Furors]

40 years down the road? Please...

[kharmajunkie]

No, it doesn't make him a tyrant. Do you think that analogy is relevant to this discussion though? It doesn't seem like enough
people are aware that Saddam was aided by the CIA to gain power in Iraq and we as a country should be more honest about
all aspects of the war and the history of it. (some posters here think he's a member of the Taliban) I don't think that it's unpatriotic to question and point out the faults of your country and/or government; especially if you're willing to help fix the problem. We have the potential to be the greatest country in the world but are way too apathetic to live up to that potential at this time.

[rmnunez]

Not allowing civilians to abandon a city under attack could be, but not necessarily is, a violation of the rules of war. It might not be depending on certain circumstances. For example, if the civilians were warned of an impending attack and given adequate time to evacuate, but chose to remain until circumstances allowing for their safe evacuation disappeared, then it might not be. The fact that the civilians are dressed like terrorists or viceversa probably also factors in because establishing their entitlement to leave under the rules of war would be much more difficult, particularly since there is a fairly good chance terrorists among the insurgents would conceal their weapons or explosives. Additionally it should be noted an estimated 50% of the insurgent/terrorists did get away, my guess is by mixing themselves with fleeing civilians.

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid...4/11/17/1524239

I followed that link. No data available (on civilians casualties) as of yet, except for rough numbers.

I expect that number (800) may be much higher, for the following reasons:
- no civilians have been allowed to leave their homes
- no medical and provisional supplies
- subject to military actions

My estimates go to appx. 2,500 - 3000, since there is no technology or weapons to bypass civilians and hit fighting sides, instead.
I hope I am wrong.

[rmnunez]

A coule thousand seems a likely final toll, probably many more wounded too. The Red Cross estimates are low, but sensible. What intrigues me is the sense this is awful, a terrible wrong by the gringoes.

I start by granting the most exagerated of detractors descriptions of urban warfare (awfully bloody, very dangerous, lots of civilians caught in the crossfire). Next I take due account of the fact the insurgent/terrorists don't have uniforms so they'd be hard to tell from civilians when not shooting. Then I'd consider the size of Fallujah and its civilian population coupled with the fact the insurgent/terrorists were not found all holed up in a single building or base.

Suppose you were in a squad of troops who were told to clear an area. Your group takes fire from some sector, you report it and the place gets some artillery, a few helicopters straff the location, firing stops, any civilian casualties? Probably some, how could they be spared? Maybe if the gringoes went in on foot and climbed to the top of the possibly booby-trapped building...

Making that decision instead of calling in for some artillery and air support would depend on the unit's leader knowing (and being concerned) over the number of hidden civilians in the area, but its hard to be concerned or even notice civilians who are hidden.

[rmnunez]

Winning their hearts and minds:

Over $90 million in US-funded reconstruction projects are planned for Fallujah once it is secure.

"We don't do a combat operation in Fallujah unless we are prepared to repair it," said Col. John R. Ballard, commander of the Marine 4th Civil Affairs Group, based in Washington. "This isn't about punishing the town. This is about getting rid of a very bad influence. When we do that, there is going to be damage."

Marine commanders have $40 million at their disposal to spend in the city, including paying compensation to residents whose property is damaged by either side. Families suffering a death, serious injury or property damage can receive a one-time payment of as much as $2,500. About $50 million worth of reconstruction projects designated for Fallujah have been on hold since April, when the Marines broke off an offensive and insurgents seized control of the city. The US Project Contracting Office, which is responsible for spending congressionally approved reconstruction funds for Iraq, has identified four key projects -worth an additional $50 million- to start within two months after the city is returned to local government control. The first of those projects is a $35 million new sewage treatment facility for the city. and others include $4 million to build four schools, $6.2 million for a new health care facility and clinics, and $2.5 million to improve the electrical grid.

An Iraqi police officer from Fallujah said residents of the city were eager for the reconstruction to begin. "It's not just a matter of jobs," said the man, who declined to give his name. "Before April, the people inside the town, many people were fighting the Americans. But now the situation is different. They want someone to help them. The schools are not open. No one can go to his job. We want the Marines to come in to help."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37987-2004Nov9?language=printer

Civil Afairs (Marines mending fences in towns near Fallujah) http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...40509-mcn03.htm