In Mosul

[Melvyn]

In Mosul.

Insurgents attacked the Iraqi city of Mosul today. At least five police stations were overrun and looted for weapons, ammunition and body armor. They have attacked in numerous parts of the Sunni Triangle.

"Violence surged through the so-called Sunni triangle in central Iraq, with ambushes, bombings and mortar attacks jolting Tikrit, Kirkuk, Hawija, Samarra and the provincial capital of Ramadi, 30 miles west of Falluja, which is 35 miles west of Baghdad.", This from an article by Edward Wong of the NYTimes.

The response of the Iraqi government was to impose a curfew on selected cities, presumably cities where they think they can enforce it.

In terms of the American need to create order in Iraq and the conditions under which elections can be held, it appears we are making no progress. In a few days we will declare victory in Fallujah. We may even pull out leaving Iraqi forces to guard the city. It is unknown if they will be able to defend against insurgent attacks. It is probable the insurgents will not attack them directly, but continue with their pattern of ambushes, roadside bombings and suicide attacks. It does not matter if the Iraqis hold the city. The insurgents will continue to attack places that are not adequately defended.

I saw pictures of Marines blowing up weapons caches. The insurgents, given their attacks of today don't appear to be running out of weapons and ammunition. They have enriched themselves at the expense of the Iraqi police.

Our strategy in Iraq is one of repeated failure. We are losing the war. We need new leadership with a new strategy for winning. Time is running out. The timetable of our own creation is dominated by the elections. If the elections cannot be held in reasonable calm, then we will have failed, perhaps irrevocably.

Contemplate the consequences of failure in Iraq, given the commitment we have made, is frightening. We may not be considered a superpower any longer. The world will realize that we only dominate in certain situations and we will have taught our enemies how to defeat us. There the weakness and confusion we are demonstrating will invite attack.

Melvyn Polatchek

Melvyn, why do you refer to Muslim Terrorists as "insurgents?" But, yes, we should have used neutron bombs to vaporize the Muslim Terrorists in Falluja. Think of this as an important challenge in civilizing a barbaric Muslim country.

[Dieval]

Falluja should have been leveled months ago.

[The Dunedan]

Snouter:
Your callous and casual disregard for civillian life puts you on the same level as Usama bin-Laden and his crowd.

Just so's ya know.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Snouter, we should have used neutron bombs to vaporize the Muslim Terrorists in Falluja.

And you are calling the patriots of Iraq "subanimals"...

Is that a photograph of your face as your avatar?

You don't appear sociopathic...

[Dieval]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, And you are calling the patriots of Iraq "subanimals"...

Are you calling the insurgent/terrorists of Iraq "patriots"?

[PatrickHenry]

Let me ask you this, Dieval: can other men (besides Americans) be patriots of their nation?

If a man's nation is siezed and occupied, a puppet government emplaced and the foreign armies refuse to leave, what does a patriot do?

What is terror? Death from the sky? A bullet to the head of a civilian by a soldier? Rape and torture in a prison? A videotaped beheading? Or a bomb by a man defending his nation's sovereignty? All of these or none?

Insurgents are often patriots: the revolutionaries of 1776 were sought for insurgency, but I honor them as patriots of my nation. Our capital was named for an insurgent against the authorized powers of the land he was born to.

Now there may be foreign fighters against the American and British occupation in Iraq. These would not qualify as patriots, but rather as idealogues. But terror is a tactic. So, yes those patriots of the nation of Iraq who use terror can be classified as terrorists. Does the same word apply to US citizens who use the tactic? Can a man be a patriot and a terrorist at the same time? You tell me...

I do not defend the wrongful actions of my nation as "necessities." A war of choice does not qualify as a rightful, defensive action. And I recognize patriotism as a universal concept, not the monopoly of the American right...

[Suburbanite]

Does it matter if they can? Does someone else's viewpoint trump your own?

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PatrickHenry,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Snouter, we should have used neutron bombs to vaporize the Muslim Terrorists in Falluja.

And you are calling the patriots of Iraq "subanimals"...

Is that a photograph of your face as your avatar?

You don't appear sociopathic...[/b][/quote]

No, he looks like a hobbit. A twisted, biggoted hobbit.

The reason they are called insurgents, Snouter, is because they are part of an insurgency. I know it's difficult for you, what with your head full of the voices of angels telling you to kill the dirty foreigners, but do try and see the link between an insurgency and an insurgent.

[bishop]

excellent posts melvyn and PH.

to be quite honest, i have respect for genuine iraqi nationalists who want their country to truly be liberated, rather than become an american puppet in the way that saddam was during his early years (and how the majority of middle eastern regimes historically have been). i definitely don't want to see our troops die, but i also realize that a lot of them are there because they want to be there. especially the people who signed up for the military with full knowledge that we were about to go to war with iraq. i don't feel sorry for those who knowingly took those sorts of risks.

my concerns lay with those of the nation, rather than those of our troops. the nation is not benefitting whatsoever from this imperialist crusade of ours. neither are the soldiers, but they've been trained well - i.e. indoctrinated, and they follow orders regardless. that's fine and dandy, unfortunately this war is unjust.

if palestine is proof of anything - no amount of force can stop popular resistance to occupation. all our tactics will succeed in accomplishing will be killing lots of civilians, some insurgents, some genuine terrorists (i.e. those with affiliations to groups like al qaeda), and in general - turning even more iraqis against us. we should just get the hell out of there NOW. i haven't seen a shred of progress in iraq for at least a year straight now. iraqi elections aren't going to amount to shit, not with all sorts of nationalist militias running around. plus, have any of you even seen who allawi is even running against? looks like there's just one candidate on the ticket - our candidate.

[Dieval]

If the patriots wanted what was best for their country, they'd be helping us. Do you really think that these patriots want freedom for anyone? Why did we find hostages - included 1 Iraqi taxi driver who wasn't even working with US people(I bet he will now) - if their trying to fight for their country? Twist it anyway you want, but these "patriots" are out to gain power through the use of terror. That's it.

If you think we're the bad guys here, why are we the ones rescuing hostages? Why aren't we cutting peoples heads off? Why aren't we taking hostages??

[bishop]

war IS terror.. when the enemy can't use satellite guided bombs, they have to resort to other tactics. in the end, the result is the same - people get killed. you have no right to judge their ends vs. means - being someone who believes that through war we can impose democracy. i'll bet that you are more moved by the images of people getting decapitated than by the thousands of iraqi civilians who have died by OUR HANDS. it's a nice double standard, but one that i'm not willing to partake in.

we are more interested in securing continued access (read: control) over iraqi oil flows than we are in iraqi democracy. why did we push for chalabi so much when nobody supported him? why are we pushing for alawi now even though nobody supports him?

don't read too far into the propaganda, it only helps to crowd out the ability to think for yourself. (being racist is another way to negate thought as well.)

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop, war IS terror.. when the enemy can't use satellite guided bombs, they have to resort to other tactics. in the end, the result is the same - people get killed. you have no right to judge their ends vs. means - being someone who believes that through war we can impose democracy. i'll bet that you are more moved by the images of people getting decapitated than by the thousands of iraqi civilians who have died by OUR HANDS. it's a nice double standard, but one that i'm not willing to partake in.

So you think we should give them satellite guided bombs so the fighting can be equal?
WTF do you mean I have no right to judge their ends vs. means? If you cut someones head off(using terror to acheive your goal) YOU ARE A FUCKING TERRORIST. End of story. Stop trying to justify TERRORISM.

[bullshitdetector]

Oh but hey, its ok if the UN has its own military and fights the US, Dieval. There is a whole lot of anti americanism going on here. Terrorists are oppressed, we need to help them.

[Melvyn]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, Let me ask you this, Dieval: can other men (besides Americans) be patriots of their nation? If a man's nation is siezed and occupied, a puppet government emplaced and the foreign armies refuse to leave, what does a patriot do? What is terror? Death from the sky? A bullet to the head of a civilian by a soldier? Rape and torture in a prison? A videotaped beheading? Or a bomb by a man defending his nation's sovereignty? All of these or none?

I don't have much use for the word terrorist, though it seems potent in propaganda. I see terrorism as a tactic used by those at war with apparently superior forces. These tactics may be viewed by the west as beyond the pale, but I agree that a bomb against even a legitimate military target which kills innocents is really no more moral. Both are acts of unspeakable tragedy and ruthlessness.

I do believe that those who defend their homeland against foreign invaders or occupiers can be called patriots. But if my country is the occupier (in this case attempted occupier) and these patriots are shooting at our soldiers then they are our enemies as well. I see myself as an American and only in the most theoretical sense a citizen of the world. I cannot make common cause with all people because many people treat me as their enemy. (Not me personally, but as an American) I even admit that we have had a hand in creating many of these enemies. Certainly in the mideast we have taken some extraordinarily callous actions and made terrible mistakes in how we treated the Arab World.

Neither are the Arabs angels. I suspect that one fundamental motivation for Arab hatred of the U.S. has to do with our support of Israel. Yet, even with the problematic morality of the establishment of the State of Israel for the Arabs to wage continuous war, to turn all of their nations into dictatorships based on hatred for this small number of people in this tiny sliver of land makes no sense. For them to have continued to deny real help to the Palestinians to live a better life, but to leave them as an army of desperation to continue thier failed attempt to destroy Israel was immoral sheer folly.

They have other reasons to hate us, our loose morality (to them), our material wealth and their material failure among others. Perhaps it is plain old fashioned religious intolerance. (I know their were periods of tolaerance in the past, but it does not exist now)

So they hate us and many of them have come to Iraq, not Iraqi patriots, but Muslim Ideologues. They have an opportunity for a major defeat against America for we do not seem to understand how to fight them. Perhaps we are confused because of our own problematic intervention about which many of us are not clear.

With all of that, with our own mistakes and ruthless actions, I do not feel it necessary to lie down and accept defeat. As an American, I believe we should do everything we can to prevail. An enemy is an enemy no matter how he/she got that way.

Melvyn Polatchek

[bishop]

i think the number of foreign fighters has been grossly exaggerated by the major media.. from documentaries that i've seen, the majority of insurgents are iraqi nationalists, not foreigners.

you don't want to lie down and accept defeat.. fine.. that statement implies that you're holding out for some success... what is the criterion for success?

[bishop]

Originally posted by dieval So you think we should give them satellite guided bombs so the fighting can be equal? WTF do you mean I have no right to judge their ends vs. means? If you cut someones head off(using terror to acheive your goal) YOU ARE A FUCKING TERRORIST. End of story. Stop trying to justify TERRORISM.

how many civilians have we killed? we're no better than them.. in fact, going by the number of civilians killed - WE'RE WORSE!!! oh yeah.. we don't chop peoples' heads off.. sure.. but we bomb children while they sleep and don't even apologize for it!

http://www.iraqbodycount.net

and talking about terror tactics.. shock and fucking awe... that wasn't designed to instill TERROR? give me a break.. i ain't sippin your kool aid.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop, how many civilians have we killed? we're no better than them.. in fact, going by the number of civilians killed - WE'RE WORSE!!! oh yeah.. we don't chop peoples' heads off.. sure.. but we bomb children while they sleep and don't even apologize for it! http://www.iraqbodycount.net and talking about terror tactics.. shock and fucking awe... that wasn't designed to instill TERROR? give me a break.. i ain't sippin your kool aid.

Bull shit! You don't like what we're doing so you're going to use any means you want to jusitfy their terrorist actions. Making demands or you'll decapitate someone is not the same as using the military to attack the enemy. WE do not target civilians and make every effort to avoid them - the insurgents/terrorists go after anyone & everyone!

[bishop]

are all of the insurgents decapitating people, or just the ones affiliated with zarqawi? think for christ's sake...

we may not target civilians but we do not make every effort to avoid civilian deaths in my opinion. and even if we do (which cluster bombing cities contradicts), the fact of the matter is that we've killed THOUSANDS more civilians than the insurgents have.

and, why are you incapable of separating insurgents from terrorists? if it talks, walks and acts like a sheep..........

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bishop,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>are all of the insurgents decapitating people, or just the ones affiliated with zarqawi? think for christ's sake...[/b]

Do you know which ones are doing what? Do you have some insider way of knowing who's doing what?
<!--QuoteBegin-bishop,

we may not target civilians but we do not make every effort to avoid civilian deaths in my opinion. [/quote]your "opinion" is wrong. In Falluja we told them to leave or risk being killed...what more can we do, besides not fighting the insurgents/terrorists(which isn't going to happen)?

Do your "patriots" (otherwise known as insurgents/terrorists) give warnings before blowing up a car packed with explosives in the middle of civilians? I don't think so.