In Mosul

[bishop]

it does, and i agreed.. that's why i said i wouldn't continue to feed the troll.. reading through the thread, i fail to see much contribution on his part - aside from many personal comments and incendiary remarks.. leaf through the thread and you'll see my contributions in this discussion.

[OberonDOtherseid]

I see you repeat yourself and anyone who disagrees with you getting the flame thrower, I don't care what you do Bishop but he has contributed just as you have. He is no more a troll than you and I.

[bullshitdetector]

Oh now I'm a troll. how rich!

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop, i fail to see how demolishing a city will win over the hearts and minds of the people who live there..

Would you like to hear a bit about how it's going to win over their hearts and minds?
Mujahidin terrorised Fallujah, residents say

Mutilated bodies dumped on Fallujah's bombed out streets today painted a harrowing picture of eight months of rebel rule. As US and Iraqi troops mopped up the last vestiges of resistance in the city after a week of bombardment and fighting, residents who stayed on through last week's offensive were emerging and telling harrowing tales of the brutality they endured.

Still think removing the insurgents was a bad thing? It sounds to me like the people there don't think so...

Fullujah sounds like a real winner to me...they were storing so many weapons and explosives in/near there that when we blew up a bunker, secondary explosions lasted for 45 minutes

The bombs shook the ground of the former insurgent stronghold and set off secondary explosions that went on for 45 minutes but could not be seen above ground, persuading officers of the Army's First Infantry Division that there were large stockpiles of weapons underground.

US bombs gut insurgent bunker complex, Large stockpile of weapons said destroyed
Sounds like good riddance to me...

[rmnunez]

Bishop, success in Mosul will be different, I think there will be more trouble with foreign fighters. I also expect there will be greater resistance to being held as hostages or human shields by the insurgents and probably, if they get the public services back online quickly in Fallujah, greater local willingness to finger the insurgents causing them to either repress locals or flee for more hospitable climes. The lessons to civilians Fallujah gives are; get out if you can, avoid the insurgents/terrorists, stock up and hide. Lack of local support makes these guys more vulnerable, they have lost a substantial number of their members in Fallujah and the foreigners don’t seem as committed.

Mosul is three times bigger than Fallujah, it will take 3 times the force or 3 times as long. I think they should get started right away, force the insurgents to take hostages, provoke a rebellion within the insurgency/terrorism so that the foreigners get run out, take those down or track them to their warrens, do the remaining insurgents as a rescue operation to liberate captive hostages.

Allawi is the most powerful Iraqi, he depends on the US for that power but will be beholden to the Iraqis by the end of January if they can carry out the elections in acceptable levels of safety (comparable to what was seen in Afghanistan). Once those elections are done, Allawi will be actually an elected and accountable ruler with a fixed term. The US will continue to transfer different capacities to his government as it grows into those responsibilities with diminishing opposition on the ground. Allawi will truly be his own boss when 2 things happen; he grows a reliable and effective military capable of handling whatever resistance from the insurgency and foreign governments recognize him as endowed with the atributes they expect from a peer.

To accomplish this nationwide what remains is securing the Sunni triangle which includes half a dozen medium sized towns and cities. Fallujah is down, Mosul is the largest one left, Samarra is smaller and would be easier, but time gives the insurgents more of an advantage so its probably better to strike while the iron is still relatively hot. If they help the Mosulians evacuate, start controlling deliveries and monitor movements to and from the place Mosul could be badly deteriorated but certifiably insurgent/terrorist-free within 3 weeks. A lot depends on how much collateral damage is found when the dust settles in Fallujah. It should be noted Mosul is not as architecturally sensitive as Mosul, so its easier from the air too.

There was an Indian legend a man came across death at the market, he fled to his home in Samarrah, where he died -as was his destiny. Hence it is said an appointment in Samarrah is with one’s destiny.

[Pooeypants]

No one knows for sure who leads these insurgents, some claims the mysterious Al Zarqawi, though he is often quoted (they claimed he left Falluja before it was conquered last week) although there is no solid evidence for any of this.
I'm guessing they're part of the Islamists movement (which Zawahiri and Bin Laden was part of) and they hate Liberalism which they believe will disrupt a person's ability to be a good Muslim and praise Allah. With that in mind, they've managed to twist the Qu'ran and take it literally that any one who is Liberal can be killed as they are not true Muslims.

[rmnunez]

Pooey's got it, though I doubt the distinction between Liberal and Conservative (or anything else) is made by any Islamist movement (we are all simply infidels).

[bishop]

decided to dig this one up.. reading some of the posts from our so-called conservatives here is interesting - especially compared to how reality has materialized. in the beginnings of this thread, it was argued that our destruction of fallujah and mosul would be successes for both us and the iraqi people (under the assumption that we'd be killing terrorists and pacifying the country). yes... us "defeatists" were totally wrong a couple months ago.

let's see what the iraqis are saying, just a week before elections -

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...ons/index.html

Khalil Ibrahim, standing in line with about 40 other men waiting for an ID card, said angrily, "My house is burned and looted. Burned and looted. My whole street. Were (the residents of the houses) all terrorists?" In November, Falluja was the scene of intense fighting as U.S. and Iraqi troops waged a campaign to clear the city of insurgents. Ibrahim said his shop also was burned and looted. But he said he had no choice but to bring his family of six back to Falluja because rent was too expensive in Baghdad where they had fled. "Our hearts are burned," he said. And the wounds are something democracy can't heal. "How can we vote when we don't believe in what we are voting for?" he asked. Most of the men standing in line said they would not be voting. <snip> Iraqi officials estimate that 140,000 Falluja residents have come back to to survey the damage brought about by the U.S.-led military campaign to oust insurgents, but only a fraction, about 15,000, are staying in Falluja. At Dave's Field, while there is talk of democracy, the focus is on necessities. Despite the need for food and basic supplies, the item in highest demand is the wheelbarrow. "My house was destroyed," said 14-year-old Ali Daoud whose mother sent him to pick up a wheelbarrow so that they could start clearing out the rubble. "I came yesterday, but they are out," said Leyla Haraj, whose husband was killed in a U.S. invasion of the city in April. Haraj returned in December, when U.S. and Iraqi officials announced residents of certain neighborhoods would be allowed back following another assault. Haraj and her sister came with their 10 kids, saying they could not afford to pay rent outside of Falluja. "I have been coming for 15 days for a wheelbarrow. Our house was destroyed. How am I supposed to clear it out?" asked Nawfar Mohanna, a mother of seven. Her family from the Andalus neighborhood had been staying in a school outside Falluja, but authorities made them leave. Most neighborhoods are without electricity and water. U.S. Marines have set up water storage units every few blocks. An employee with the Ministry of Electricity said it would be one or two months before power is back. Residents said no gasoline is available. U.S. and Iraqi authorities promised financial compensation for those whose homes were damaged or destroyed. Some residents have filed claims, and some said officials from the Ministry of Housing had been by to assess the damage. But, according to U.S. military officials, the Iraqi government is still figuring out compensation procedures.

[Zeebadee]

Hey, not to worry. The U.S. taxpayer will pay to rebuild every house that was damaged or destroyed. Bush is asking for about $105 billion more for Iraq this year alone (http://olympics.reuters.com/printerF...toryID=7413977), and that figure will undoubtedly go up as the year progresses. But no problem, because as the Bushistas keep reminding us, "Freedom isn't free".

[rmnunez]

Rebuilding houses in Iraq is much cheaper than you think Zee.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Rebuilding houses in Iraq is much cheaper than you think Zee.

Well, the war has cost over $150 billion already, with another 105 billion requested. This doesn't even take into account the thousands of lives lost. Tell me more about how cheap it is to rebuild houses in Iraq.

[bishop]

in the bushista perspective of the world, this is how they view money:



need some more? just print it and sell more bonds to the chinese. borrowing as far as the eye can see.

once upon a time, these lying pieces of shit told us that the iraqis would fund their own reconstruction. americans would like healthcare, better education, more local development projects. instead, we're paying for iraqi healthcare, iraqi education, iraqi development. bush should've run for president of iraq since that's the place he seems to care the most about.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Zeebadee Well, the war has cost over $150 billion already, with another 105 billion requested. This doesn't even take into account the thousands of lives lost. Tell me more about how cheap it is to rebuild houses in Iraq.

Adding the funds committed but not yet spent along with the new $80 billion dollar request by King George, the total cost so far is now approaching $300 billion. It is more than 13 times larger than Bush's budget for the Environmental Protection Agency and nearly as large as the state of California's annual budget.

Counting only the dollars already spent is equivalent to hiring 2.6 million more school teachers for a year or 7.3 million four year scholarships at public universities. Cost of the War in Iraq

Rebuilding houses in Iraq is costly in both blood and treasure.