In Mosul

[bishop]

Do you know which ones are doing what? Do you have some insider way of knowing who's doing what?

likewise, what insider knowledge to you base your statements on? i've only learned about one group that's been doing the decapitations - the one led by zarqawi. if you, with your infinite guesstimation abilities know something i don't, please share.

your "opinion" is wrong. In Falluja we told them to leave or risk being killed...what more can we do, besides not fighting the insurgents/terrorists(which isn't going to happen)? Do your "patriots" (otherwise known as insurgents/terrorists) give warnings before blowing up a car packed with explosives in the middle of civilians? I don't think so.

so, the only people who live in fallujah are terrorists, eh? certainly no mothers with children had to become refugees by our hand. certainly no mothers with children will get to return to rubble where their home used to stand.. oh yeah, this is for their own good, i forgot.. thankfully, you're around to keep reminding us - or helping us to ignore what we are doing to iraqi civilians.

they don't fight fair, and neither do we.. telling an entire city to leave "or else" is a terrorist action on a much larger scale than car bombings.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop, they don't fight fair, and neither do we.. telling an entire city to leave "or else" is a terrorist action on a much larger scale than car bombings.

If you're comparing giving a city warning that we're going to root out the terrorists/insurgents and make their city a safer place to beheadings and car bombs....I'm completely lost...

You're justifying terrorists acts Bishop...you need to wake up and see that we're not the problem. They are.

[Nono]

Originally posted by Melvyn Even with the problematic morality of the establishment of the State of Israel for the Arabs to wage continuous war, to turn all of their nations into dictatorships based on hatred for this small number of people in this tiny sliver of land makes no sense. For them to have continued to deny real help to the Palestinians to live a better life, but to leave them as an army of desperation to continue thier failed attempt to destroy Israel was immoral sheer folly.

I see it the other way around. Focusing on the Palestine issue has always been a way for oppressive Arab regimes to deflect attention from themselves. Immoral, yes; but a useful tactic.

I do not feel it necessary to lie down and accept defeat. As an American, I believe we should do everything we can to prevail. An enemy is an enemy no matter how he/she got that way.

That's the kind of lame thinking that keeps the Israel/Palestine thing going around and around and around. You're never going to "prevail"; all you're doing is spinning your wheels, digging your grave deeper and deeper.

Remember Vietnam, Melvyn. All that bomb tonnage, all those lives. And in the end it was all waste. You Americans continue to roar around in your big cars and demand that your taxes be cut. Sacrifices? Let somebody else make them! Wfilful blindness and piss-poor tactics apart, you're never going to win this Iraq thing because you lack your opponent's determination. Just like Vietnam.

[bishop]

If you're comparing giving a city warning that we're going to root out the terrorists/insurgents and make their city a safer place to beheadings and car bombs....I'm completely lost... You're justifying terrorists acts Bishop...you need to wake up and see that we're not the problem. They are.

bring war upon a city isn't making it safer. we all would hope that this new show of force will somehow make the country safer - most of us who've seen how the iraqis have responded over the past year+ realize that it won't make much difference at all... in the aftermath, we'll see a major city reduced to rubble, which will piss even more iraqis off, who will continue to support people they see as patriots.

i'm justifying terrorists acts?? really? show me where i've justified beheading people or car bombing civilians..

personally, i consider bringing war upon a city to be an act of terrorism.. but alas, you are simply debating from your stubborn position.

the terrorists (not insurrectionists - there is a difference even if you can't understand it) are the problem. and we are the problem.. iraq does not belong to us, despite what american fascists think.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bishop,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>bring war upon a city isn't making it safer. we all would hope that this new show of force will somehow make the country safer - most of us who've seen how the iraqis have responded over the past year+ realize that it won't make much difference at all... in the aftermath, we'll see a major city reduced to rubble, which will piss even more iraqis off, who will continue to support people they see as patriots.[/b]

If bringing war upon a city isn't making it safer in this case, what do you suggest? We know that the city was full of thousands of insurgents/terrorists and that they weren't going to leave peacfully.....what should we do? Give up and leave?

Originally posted by bishop,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bishop,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i'm justifying terrorists acts?? really? show me where i've justified beheading people or car bombing civilians.. [/b]

You've basically said you understand why they're doing what their doing and (maybe I'm wrong here) given them the green light to go ahead with it....is that not what you've been defending here?
<!--QuoteBegin-bishop,@

personally, i consider bringing war upon a city to be an act of terrorism.. but alas, you are simply debating from your stubborn position.[/quote]You're one to talk...War is not terrorism. War is a necessary evil and in this case there is no other option.
<!--QuoteBegin-bishop,

the terrorists (not insurrectionists - there is a difference even if you can't understand it) are the problem. and we are the problem.. iraq does not belong to us, despite what american fascists think.[/quote]You're right, it doesn't believe to us...that's why we're following the Interim's PM's order to remove the insurgent/terrorist problem.

[bishop]

what should we do? Give up and leave?

yup.. you can't beat a popular resistance with force. just ask the israelis.

You've basically said you understand why they're doing what their doing and (maybe I'm wrong here) given them the green light to go ahead with it....is that not what you've been defending here?

no... understanding why they would choose certain tactics is not condoning their actions.. if the terrorists had their hands on satellite guided munitions, do you think they'd still be chopping heads off people? fyi - understanding is not defending or condoning.. get a dictionary.

You're one to talk...War is not terrorism. War is a necessary evil and in this case there is no other option.

this war was NEVER necessary.. you are a terrorist supporter imo. a supporter of american terrorism.

You're right, it doesn't believe to us...that's why we're following the Interim's PM's order to remove the insurgent/terrorist problem.

yeah.. i'm sure it's alawi who's calling the shots.. riiiiight. who are his bodyguards? oh yeah.. that would be us. my bad. he must be damn powerful indeed.

[Melvyn]

That's the kind of lame thinking that keeps the Israel/Palestine thing going around and around and around. You're never going to "prevail"; all you're doing is spinning your wheels, digging your grave deeper and deeper. Remember Vietnam, Melvyn. All that bomb tonnage, all those lives. And in the end it was all waste. You Americans continue to roar around in your big cars and demand that your taxes be cut. Sacrifices? Let somebody else make them! Wfilful blindness and piss-poor tactics apart, you're never going to win this Iraq thing because you lack your opponent's determination. Just like Vietnam.

I said attempt to prevail. We are in a great struggle against the forces of a new dark age. We are doing it right because most Americans do not yet understand this is a fight for survival, not only a fight to prevent another 9/11. Iif we don't realize it soon then we are in a lot of trouble. So is everyone else.


Melvyn - Blogging at http://radio.weblogs.com/0137954/

[Nono]

Originally posted by Melvyn We are in a great struggle against the forces of a new dark age. We are doing it right because most Americans do not yet understand this is a fight for survival, not only a fight to prevent another 9/11.

Yes, you're in a lot of trouble, and it's getting worse because your friends are thoroughly exasperated with you. As for your enemies, what you're doing in Iraq is helping those forces, proving Osama's point for him -- your name in the Muslim world is now well and truly mud. It's a terrible misappropriation of scarce resources for which I fear all of us are going to pay dearly.

[n-dependant]

Americans do not yet understand this is a fight for survival,

Your correct, most American do not yet understand this. They don't realize that we have enemies.(yes we created most of them.) They don't realize that these enemies have declared war on us. They don't realize that they have very strategically and methodically manipulated us into the current situation. A situation in which our country is divided on a war. A situation where they can attack us and half our country will defend them for doing it saying its our own damn fault. The enemy saw our weakness in vietnam. A weakness that has been exploited over and over again. The greatest way to weaken the United States is get its liberal peace at all cost side fighting its war monger globalization side. Our enemies greatest alllies are in our own country. The greatest enemy of freedom and democracy is to get it fighting itself. It is the weakness of every great democracy. The greater the freedom to speak against onces country the weaker a democracy becomes. This war has been going on for years. its bigger than Iraq. Its bigger than the western powers. Its bigger than the arab world or a religions. The only way to secure a true and lasting peace is for once side of this conflict to finially win. We could have won the war in Vietnam (weather right or wrong to do so) if the liberals didn't join the enemy. The same thing is happening here. No the Iraq war is not perfect. Yes there have been many errors. Yes war is terror and is ugly. But there is a bottom line here. Its time to pick sides. Either you choose freedom or you choose enslavement. Some people have real trouble seeing the deck of cards. We can pull this one out or the next one and it will keep standing. Its time to build a real foundation.

WHO SIDE ARE YOU ON?

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop, yup.. you can't beat a popular resistance with force.

With that attitude, I'm done talking to you. Defeatists never accomplished anything.

[bishop]

i wouldn't hold my breath hoping that we're successful.

hitler wasn't a defeatist either.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by n-dependant,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (n-dependant,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>...The greater the freedom to speak against onces country the weaker a democracy becomes. [/b]

Hold on there pardner! Are you saying the strength of democracy doesn't rest upon its foundation of freedom? Specifically freedom to speak? As in saying to the Gov: "You're wrong!" A strong democracy needs restrictions of free speech--is that what you think?

Originally posted by n-dependant,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (n-dependant,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This war has been going on for years. its bigger than Iraq. Its bigger than the western powers. Its bigger than the arab world or a religions. The only way to secure a true and lasting peace is for once side of this conflict to finially win.[/b]

What war are you talking about? The war by the pseudo-democratic USA against Freedom? See you put your pants on backward somehow. Enslavement means gradually DECREASING freedom.

Originally posted by n-dependant, We could have won the war in Vietnam (weather right or wrong to do so) if the liberals didn't join the enemy. The same thing is happening here.

Liberals? I ain't a liberal, but I havent joined the enemy. I have recognized him. His ass is parked in Washington DC. And how would you recognize a "win" in VietNam? If the nationalists stopped fighting the occupying power? It NEVER was gonna happen. Just like if Germany or Japan tried to occupy the US. Bubba, that would be a never-ending war.<!--QuoteBegin-n-dependant,@
No the Iraq war is not perfect. Yes there have been many errors. Yes war is terror and is ugly. But there is a bottom line here. Its time to pick sides. Either you choose freedom or you choose enslavement. [/quote]Like I said before, Washington DC is the slaver here. I choose freedom. The freedom to tell the Emperor to give me back my constitution...<!--QuoteBegin-n-dependant,
Some people have real trouble seeing the deck of cards. We can pull this one out or the next one and it will keep standing. Its time to build a real foundation.

WHO SIDE ARE YOU ON?[/quote]Turn your pants around, sheesh...

[G. Adams]

If you want to see how a nationalist guerrilla force is stopped, compare Northern Ireland to Israel. From the sixties to the nineties the IRA had been fighting the UK and Unionist forces in NI for the rights of catholics (short-term goal) and the re-unification of Ireland. When the bombs car bombs were detinated in Belfast, or cappings in Derry (thats where you pry a persons knee-cap off), or a gold old crusifiction was administered in Antrim, did UK forces invade Eire? Even when a massive bomb blew up Canary Wharf in the middle of London, an attack on our own soil, or blew up a hotel in Brighton with most of our Cabinet, including the PM, inside, did we go and clusterbomb Dublin? No, because that's moronic. We would have been lashing out blidnly against people we can't see, killing civillians, and leaving the grieving families to become future terrorists. The war in Ireland is over now. It was long, slow and painful. Thousands were killed over the years, which is terrible, but it could have been so much worse if we had reacted the way the US and her few allies are doing now. We could have had an Israel/Palestine scale conflict if we had pushed as we are now in Iraq.

This is a guerrilla war, you don't fight them in the streets unless they are either a) inexperienced, or b) they are distracting you from a greater cause. I guarentee you that most of the fighters will have left the city. They don't need bases, bases are assaultable positions, something every guerrilla avoids having.

What do you really believe will happen by flattening Iraq's most holy city? I watched footage on the BBC of US forces reacting to slight small arms fire with mortars, launched grenades, machine gun fire and personal weapons fire. If this is how you react to one or two terrorists I can't imagine there being much left for the evacuees to return to.

[bishop]

What do you really believe will happen by flattening Iraq's most holy city? I watched footage on the BBC of US forces reacting to slight small arms fire with mortars, launched grenades, machine gun fire and personal weapons fire. If this is how you react to one or two terrorists I can't imagine there being much left for the evacuees to return to.

exactly.. these twits haven't thought that far out into the future unfortunately.. they're more interested in showing how tough they are.

i'm sure we haven't planned for all these newly homeless people.. *what? me worry?"

they're gloating about how they've killed 1,000 insurgents.. surely there are thousands more where they came from.. hell, sunni immams were lambasting all the men for failing to fight alongside their brothers in fallujah..

maybe the american nazis will just kill them all.

[Melvyn]

Originally posted by bishop, maybe the american nazis will just kill them all.

You don't know a thing about what a nazi is. You throw around condemnations of that nature with reckless abandon, but you've never lived with real fascists.

Are these insurgents some kind of angelic persons that we are trying to stamp out, or are they forces using brutal violence to continue the mideast status quo of brutal tyrants, marginalization of women and religious introlerance.?

I understand the revulsion of war. I understand the horror of the loss of innocents and the suffering of families caugt in the cross fire. I don't understand the perjorative one sided condemnation of the American effort in Iraq.

Melvyn - Blogging at http://radio.weblogs.com/0137954/

[Nono]

Originally posted by Melvyn Are these insurgents some kind of angelic persons that we are trying to stamp out, or are they forces using brutal violence to continue the mideast status quo of brutal tyrants, marginalization of women and religious introlerance.?

They are the latter. So shame on y'all for so obligingly giving them something to gain recruits by insurging against.
You guys just don't get it, do you?

[bishop]

You don't know a thing about what a nazi is. You throw around condemnations of that nature with reckless abandon, but you've never lived with real fascists. Are these insurgents some kind of angelic persons that we are trying to stamp out, or are they forces using brutal violence to continue the mideast status quo of brutal tyrants, marginalization of women and religious introlerance.? I understand the revulsion of war. I understand the horror of the loss of innocents and the suffering of families caugt in the cross fire. I don't understand the perjorative one sided condemnation of the American effort in Iraq.

first off, fascists are synonymous with ultra-nationalists.. in my opinion, the base of bush supporters (including the ones who aren't religious - but are war hungry) are of fascist mindset. here's the definition of fascism:

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

some of us firmly believe that this is what the bushistas stand for - although they'll rhetorically characterize it differently.

as far as your comments about the insurgents go.... they are not benevolent folk, i agree. but you give us way too much credit and you ought to take a step back and look at the people that we support. we enlisted the northern alliance as allies in afghanistan. their treatment of women (and people in general) was often on par with the taliban. dig around a little and you'll learn that women haven't faired much better now that the taliban have been deposed. we support the saudis who are no friend to women. kuwait has gotten even stricter these days.. we support dictatorships in pakistan and egypt.

so, don't be so surprised if i don't buy the b.s. rhetoric that we're doing this to help people. shooting/bombing the shit out of an entire city helps no one. do you really think that our actions in fallujah are going to stop the insurrectionists? from your initial post it doesn't seem like you do. now, it seems like you're reluctantly going to support this mission, even though you don't seem to think that our current policies will help achieve this so-called success. talking about the status quo... allawi was a former official in saddam's regime! and like saddam, allawi is also an opponent of chalabi - and he's favored by the cia.. you don't get much more status quo than that i'm afraid.

our criticism is not one-sided.. it's simply rooted in the understanding that we are not in iraq to better the iraqi people, or to protect america from iraqi wmd.. we're there for iraq's oil, and we'll do whatever it takes to get it - even if that means installing another dictator.


here's a good article.. it highlights how we're tinkering with iraqi democracy to essentially legitimize allawi as its p.m.. it's worth reading....

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...=15&ItemID=6252

[bishop]

FAILURE - Al-Zarqawi, lieutenant believed to have escaped city

nice... so not only have we created some 200,000 refugees, but we also failed to catch the man we were going for..

another one bites the dust, eh?

[Dieval]

It was said, before we went into Falluja, that Al-Zarqawi probably wouldn't be found there...

[bishop]

what have we accomplished other than the inumerable negatives?

has this mission stopped the insurrectionists? has it stabilized iraq? has it won over the hearts and minds of iraqis?