Blight of the Democrat

[n-dependant]

The biggest weakness of the Democratic Party is its self perceived intellectual superiority.

Case in point:http://slate.msn.com/id/2109218/

To think to one's self "I see the whole picture. I understand the situation completely.” is simply arrogant and ignorant.

I think it boils down to people who are realistic and people who are idealistic. I think that a measure of both is what makes a person truly intellectual. If you only see thing as right or wrong, red or blue you miss the best answers.

Let me site a few simple examples. But in order to dispel any illusions about myself let me give you a little back ground. I am from a traditionally democratic state and family. My family and I are middle class. I am not a very religious person.

My examples: I supported the idealistic point of view that we should take prayer out of school. Because it should be a place of intellectual thought not religious teaching. However as a realist I must admit I think it was the wrong thing to do. The reason I think this is because a lot of people regardless of their intellectual abilities or spiritual ties teach morality to their children through their religious beliefs. Then we take these children and teach them in school that their beliefs are not scientifically founded or logical. This causes confusion and distrust of the entire moral foundation they are given. Then factor in violence on television, music, video games, and the moral decay at home and you get kids carrying guns to school.

In an ideal world it would be simply the logical thing to do. In the real world it’s causing problems. There should be a middle road.

Another example: It seems logical that if you outlaw firearms that you will get a reduction in criminal firearm use. At the very least you will make it more difficult for criminals to get them. Yet realistically this is simply not the case. You would think the same thing about drugs however you can get them on any street corner in the city I live in. I can get drugs simply by driving slowly as I turn a corner and they are already illegal! At the same time it’s notably harder to get a fire arm that is legal.

Again in an ideal world it would be simply the logical thing to do. In the real world it will just cause more problems. There should be a middle road.

Another sign of Democratic intellectual weakness is the failure to recognize the truth about republicans. The old adage that ALL republicans are simple minded red-necks or bible thumping conservatives is simply wrong. Certainly it is true of some of them. I have reviewed both platforms from and independent and un-biased point of view and the republican platforms more closely relate to my core convictions. Let’s say I am 51% republican and 49% democratic based solely on the issues. So the republicans are winning elections because people like me (independent swing voters) who are more persuade by a platform issues than whose name is on the ballot are voting in larger numbers. I used to not vote simply because I reviewed the issues and was evenly split on the parties. So it didn’t matter much to me. Over the past few years I have gotten older and a family of my own. Suddenly the family values part of it bumps up a little higher. I remember the days when the Democratic Party stance on platform issues where very inline with my own views. My views have not changed the Democratic Party has.

So although I claim independent status and would easily vote for a democrat if the platform was there I have voted republican the last few years. I guess this makes me a republican and as such I an insulted by the intellectual soap box some democrats have climbed up on. Speaking to the ones here on volconvo that slam republicans as idiots, morons, and the authors of articles like the one linked above. Republicans can easily point to the demographics and say the same thing of Democrats. Both are wrong.

Regarding the issues and why I voted Republican this time.

In an ideal world we would never be in Iraq and we wouldn’t have this mess. In an ideal world we could ask the terrorist and the insurgents to sit down and talk through our differences. In an ideal world there wouldn’t be terrorist. In the real world we are there and undermining the efforts of our troops, belittling the efforts of our allies, fueling the hatred of our enemies for ones own personal political gain is simply intolerable. In a Ideal world the Iraqi insurgents are simply people just like you and me who are peace-loving people who simply want an invading occupying army to leave. In the real world these insurgents are making no distinction between their own citizens and our personnel. They kill both. They are the pawns power hungry warlords who see the removal of formal government and a ticket to personal power.

I agree with Democrats on Stem Cell Research.
Realistic: The pros far out weight the cons.

I agree with Democrats on Abortion.
Realistic: It’s a despicable ugly thing that should be discouraged by society but ultimately it’s a decision that must be made on an individual basis.

I agree with Republicans on Gun Control.
Realistic: The studies and facts show gun control does not work.

I agree with Republicans on the economy and deficits.
Realistic: No budget could have anticipated two wars.

I agree with Republicans on Taxation. There always have been loop hole for the rich and always will be its. At least I am getting some of my money back.

I could keep going with my stances but I’m sure you could care less about them. My main point is that Democratic Party only has itself to blame for its defeat.

[bishop]

I agree with Republicans on the economy and deficits. Realistic: No budget could have anticipated two wars.

excuse me... the war with iraq was not forced upon us.. it was a choice made by bush. and the war in afghanistan didn't cost us much - especially since we had broad allied support.

the republicans on deficits??? if you weren't paying attention, we've had record deficits under bush. and better yet, he beat his own record! i voted for bush in 2000, but after what he did to our country's finances, i couldn't support him any longer. pork spending is also at all time highs. republicans care about deficits - and my ass smells like roses.

what is his plan, or the republicans, to actually reduce the deficit?!? THEY DON'T HAVE A PLAN.

[n-dependant]

Actually that was not the focus of my comments. I can discuss it if you like. Obviously we disagree here.

Edit to add this.

Also as I said before I didn't vote based on the Bush name on the platform. I voted for the platform as whole. They could put another puppet up there and I would probably have voted the same.

[Compugasm]

At least they made it to the end of the first paragraph, before they began insulting those who are not democrats as idiots. I suppose it's progress to wait until the second paragraph before compairing "red states" to bloodthirsty savages. Congratulations on failing a whole two days into the movement. I'd submit that you do not deserve the answer to why Democrats fail. No, strike that. You're told repeatedly, but consider it some kind of genetic flaw, or reptilian mindset that must be expunged! The kinder, ruthless Democrats I guess.

"The ancestors of today's red-state voters used to stand around cheering and betting on these fights."

You actually read, and belive this? Holy crap....

Republicans, your equally guilty... ya know, I have to start a new topic and collect my thoughts because I allowed Jane Smiley to get my goat.

[n-dependant]

I was commenting on the element in the Democratic Party that seems compelled to speak out about their intellectual superiority. And how it's hypocrisy turns off independent voters. I am certain there are equal unfounded attacks by republicans on democrats how ever is seems to me that the democrats more often than not are the ones who call the others intelligence to question.

There was nothing to believe in the article. Simply a good illustration of my point.

[kharmajunkie]

Originally posted by n-dependant, The biggest weakness of the Democratic Party is its self perceived intellectual superiority. .

Someone was making a similar claim on another thread. I'll ask you the same question I asked them. You may be right about Dems and their perceived, elitist attitude but isn't the GOP guilty of a similar superiority attitude; moral superiority?

[mooseboy84]

this shows the ignorance of people that voted for bush. they dont know the facts are are Unwilling to belive a truth.

just like bush wont admit Any wrong doing in iraq. his supporters Cant admit theyve been decieved by his lies.

and what is this bullcrap about you agree with republicans on financial. BUSH is one of the few presidents that has never vetoed any legislation. he just signed a "tax" bil a few weeks ago that was a HUGE give away to big business. bush deficet spending is out of control.

once again. bush supporters have no idea of what is really going on. they just take stuff about kerry being a "liberal flip flopper" as the truth, yet dont even know the real agenda of the man they voted for.

[n-dependant]

kharmajunkie, Absolutely and it's hypocrisy turns off independent voters as well.

I agree with many of the comment about the republican self percieved moral superiority is a scary thing. That will be my next thread.

[bishop]

you cite an article from slate - a blatantly partisan source. likewise, i could cite an article from newsmax and show equally partisan drivel.

the logic you use is full of quirks.. first you agree that religion should not be integrated in public schools - that school "should be a place of intellectual thought not religious teaching". then you contradict those statements by saying that the scientific approach taught in schools might confuse their religious indoctrination... the prime example: evolution vs. creation. scientists just found another missing link, and have lots of scientific evidence of our evolutionary ancestors. why shouldn't public schools teach this? oppositely, creationism has absolutely no proof whatsoever - so how can that be included in science (which is supposed to be based on SCIENCE, not mythology).

then the case about guns... you cannot compare the availability of guns with the availability of drugs. i can grow pounds of pot in my apartment, but i can't build a gun. my assumption is that growing plants is much easier than building your own weapons.

I was commenting on the element in the Democratic Party that seems compelled to speak out about their intellectual superiority. And how it's hypocrisy turns off independent voters. I am certain there are equal unfounded attacks by republicans on democrats how ever is seems to me that the democrats more often than not are the ones who call the others intelligence to question.

one can complain about the dems' alleged intellectual superiority - and they can also complain about the republicans' alleged moral superiority. what is unfortunate is that these perceptions don't mean a damn thing as far as policy is concerned. those who are intellectually inferior DO like simple messages, and they DO vote on emotion rather than specific policy issues. also, there are intellectual simpletons on all sides of the political spectrum. devil's advocate example - the morons in florida (in 2000) who couldn't understand the fly ballots.



and yes, i'd like to see you explain your comments about the republicans and deficits. i hope you understand that the spending they're currently engaged in WILL cause future tax increases. my opinion is that typical bush supporters focus more on the short-term and virtually ignore the long-term. despite all the misgivings about the dems that came into play during clinton's presidency - he set us on a path to eliminate the public portion of our debt. not only did bush destroy that hope, but he tacked on at least a $trillion in new debt.
we have another $70 billion spending bill on the table now, and the economy is entering another soft patch. inflation is creeping despite the fact that the fed has been raising rates (i hope everyone understands the significance of this point). oil prices are going up, eating into personal consumption habits.. etc..... with this spending bill and future spending proposals, where is this money going to come from? if we continue to deficit spend, inflation will go up - forcing the fed to raise interest rates which will cause another recession. or, they can raise money for federal spending by raising taxes, which is something that they won't do because republicans stake their political credentials on cutting taxes (even if it flies in the face of all existing financial/economic logic).

[n-dependant]

mooseboy84,

this shows the ignorance of people that voted for bush. they dont know the facts are are Unwilling to belive a truth.

The same could be said for Kerry supporters.

However Im not a Bush supporter.Surely the republican party can do better than him. The same could be said about Kerry also.

See this is exactly why Kerry lost the election. I read his platorm. I did item by item comparrison and as I said before I came down on the issues more on the republican side than the democratic and it was close. You dismiss this as blind loyalty to a party or leader instead of an honest critism of the platform. You also incorrectly assume I am blind to the bad things the republicans do. I am not. I see them for what they are not for what you would have me see them as. You also incorrectly assume I don't know the facts. I think the truth is that your so wrapped up in your partisian mind set you can't phatom someone having a different point of view.

he just signed a "tax" bil a few weeks ago that was a HUGE give away to big business

Please post a link the legislation you are referreing to I will read it for myself. Perhaps there was a bill I missed because I can't seem to find this specific critism?

once again. bush supporters have no idea of what is really going on. they just take stuff about kerry being a "liberal flip flopper" as the truth, yet dont even know the real agenda of the man they voted for.

This is my complaint about Kerry supporters. They are too warpped up in their hatred of bush and the evils of republican party they can longer accurately access the platforms. The fact is Kerry spent more time bashing bush than laying out his platform. When running against and incumbant you have to win the platform.

[bishop]

Please post a link the legislation you are referreing to I will read it for myself. Perhaps there was a bill I missed because I can't seem to find this specific critism?

link

The fact is Kerry spent more time bashing bush than laying out his platform. When running against and incumbant you have to win the platform.

bush didn't run on his record either - he ran on kerry's vietnam record, kerry's so-called flip-flops, kerry being called the most liberal member of the senate, etc...

don't try and pretend that bush run on his record.

[n-dependant]

bush didn't run on his record either - he ran on kerry's vietnam record, kerry's so-called flip-flops, kerry being called the most liberal member of the senate, etc...

Indeed, I would love to see politics be about the issues.

Thanks, for the link. I am reminded of this one. I though there might have been something new I had missed. I supported McCain over bush in the Primary. If they would have ran McCain instead of bush my Donkey/Elephant meter might have been 58%/42%. Now if they would have ran Dean instead of Kerry I probably have been a democrat again.

I also remember many times Kerry saying he was going to roll this thing back, but he never said how we was going to do that with a republican senate.

You also touch on a issue that is at the heart of my complaints about our political system and that is special intrests. I want to reform the system to make the voters themselves the special intrest that our goverment listens to.

I don't want to get drawn back into the many wonderful pre-election debates. I think we covered those topics enough.

[n-dependant]

Also, note I am trying to single in on things the Democrats can do to return to power. Not so much support Bush. I voted the way I did even if you convince me I made an un wise choise the election is over. I am looking foward.

Think Nader will run again? (just kidding)

[Sonart]

I was commenting on the element in the Democratic Party that seems compelled to speak out about their intellectual superiority.

When Bush can bamboozle 55% of Americas into believing that Iraq has WMD and 50% into believing that Iraq had close ties to al-Qaeda or were directly involved with 9/11, a certain sense of intellectual superiority is unavoidable.

[bishop]

i think you have your donkey/elephant meter mixed up.. heh, or at least i didn't understand it if it was correct.

i think most of us wanted mccain in 2000... gotta love the dirty campaign game that bush (really - karl rove) played against him during those primaries.. nothing like a man who found a way not to fight in vietnam lambasting the record of a vietnam hero. but, that's bush's campaign style - and it doesn't seem to bother most of his supporters.

in retrospect, i wish dean did win the primaries.. at the time of the dems' primaries, i was just about ready to dump bush. i was part of the choir that blasted dean - purely for partisan (ego) reasons. (hey at least i can admit that, most partisans never do.) he was a deficit hawk, had a solid record in vermont, he was consistently against the war, etc... and - governors generally make better choices than senators. he would've made a much stronger candidate - primarily because he would've taken the gloves off throught the entirety of the campaign.

personally, i think the dems should return to the core economic fundamentals from the clinton years. balance the budget, pay down the debt. social security reform (i.e. the move to have private accounts) began with the clinton administration - they failed to maintain that issue after 2000. they do need to drop the gay activist agenda, but they should not be cowed into legislating bigotry. and they do need to continue to protect roe v. wade (and thank god that arlen spector also wants to protect it).


about special interests... they're an evil that will never go away. whenever you have democracy, you have interest groups.. well, at least beginning from the "league" in britain during the industrial revolution. even if we had publicly funded elections, special interests would still push their agendas.