FRAUD!

[Dieval]

Originally posted by Starboy, That is a matter of opinion. There is only one way to settle this. Starboy

How do you figure that's opinion? All of our past votes have had issues..no voting system is perfect. And I believe everything posted was identified and corrected...how is that opinion?

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Dieval,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dieval,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Starboy, That is a matter of opinion. There is only one way to settle this. Starboy

How do you figure that's opinion? All of our past votes have had issues..no voting system is perfect. And I believe everything posted was identified and corrected...how is that opinion?[/b][/quote]

Hey if you have evidence there was no fraud in this particular case then bring it on. But if you don't then all you have is your opinion. I am not saying there is or is not fraud. All I am saying is that this was a close election and hinged on the results of one state and that state had many irregularities. I don't think it matters if the investigation will change the person in the Whitehouse. All Americans should want to make sure that such things cannot happen and that if there is fraud then there should be arrests. It is illegal and it hurts everyone. Just because you happen to like the outcome doesn't mean that you should be happy with how it was done.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Dieval, Look, I never said that were weren't some problems with the voting or the equipment. But it's not the wide spread fraud that gr8 and everyone else is making it out to be. No one but the conspiracy theorists actually believe it's that big of an issue.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I'll say it again. If there is ANY hint of fraud it should be uncovered and STOPPED!! This is apparently where we differ. I believe if it occurs at all it IS that big an issue. Any election fraud at all, regardless if it has "always" been around must be stopped completely and stopped now.
You know as well as I that if someone gets away with something he'll try to push the envelope a bit more next time. THAT is not a conspiracy theory, it is human nature.

It's awfully coincidental that the anti-Bush people here have picked up the conspiracy theory torch and started to run with it....like I said, if it was Kerry that won, I doubt you people would be doing th same thing...

You're right, if Kerry was implicated it would not be them, it would be YOU.
Get real here, if you strongly suspected fraud against Bush there is no way in hell you'd be complacent in any way.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Starboy, Hey if you have evidence there was no fraud in this particular case then bring it on. But if you don't then all you have is your opinion. I am not saying there is or is not fraud. All I am saying is that this was a close election and hinged on the results of one state and that state had many irregularities. I don't think it matters if the investigation will change the person in the Whitehouse. All Americans should want to make sure that such things cannot happen and that if there is fraud then there should be arrests. It is illegal and it hurts everyone. Just because you happen to like the outcome doesn't mean that you should be happy with how it was done. Starboy

Well put. "I don't think it matters if the investigation will change the person in the Whitehouse," is right on the money and the Bush supporters just won't buy it, and conversely the Kerry fans wouldn't either. It doesn't matter nearly as much as protection of the process.
I can't speak for the Bush groupies, but if I supported the man and he was found to have been elected improperly, I wouldn't get my back up about it. I would feel betrayed.
I have to say again I would not believe either Bush or Kerry personally had anything to do with this. I do believe the keepers of multimillion-dollar campaigns would stop at nothing to keep their money from being wasted.

[Starboy]

I tell you, we appear to have an ends justifies the means mentality in this country. Such thinking can get a country into a lot of trouble.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

Judging by some of the things I'm hearing, I think we might already be in trouble.

[Dieval]

Here's what I'm saying, in a nut shell -
Irregularities do not always mean fraud

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Dieval, Here's what I'm saying, in a nut shell - Irregularities do not always mean fraud

Who said it does? You know something we don't know? What are you trying to hide?

Starboy

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Dieval,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dieval,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Irregularities do not always mean fraud[/b]

That would be fine if it were a few isolated incidents. We are talking millions and they are all in favor of Bush.

<!--QuoteBegin-Dieval,
Irregulatities[/quote]?
1) The exit polls matched the election results except where they used Diebold and other election machines that offer no paper trail.

2) We are talking about racism, which is an irregularity "of choice". Long lines in black precincts. Cops with hands on their gun at the door to polling place.

3) Irregularities like CNN changing the exit poll on their website to show a Bush lead flip-flopping from Kerry by 3% (from 49% Bush to 52% Bush after only 57additional votes)

4) Irregularities like Widespread OPTI-SCAN malfunctions all in favor of Bush.

5)

www.washingtondispatch.com Palm Beach County Logs 88,000 More Votes Than Voters November 5, 2004 04:56 PM

Irregularities. Like thousands of computers that all forget how to count on the same day. Did your computer forget how to count on Nov 2 ???? I am proud of my computer. It has never ever ever, forgotten how to count.

(edit to add 1st line)

[Dieval]

You mean exit polls were wrong? Well that makes it clear for me. It obviously was a fraud. :rolleyes:

I guess it couldn't be that the supposed racism you mentioned(i.e. long lines at polling places) might have happened because those area's are densely populated AND the largest voter turnout in history happened?? And MAYBE just MAYBE the cops were CALLED for a reason! MAYBE something happened where they were needed... Did you ever think of that? Did the cops with hands on their guns tell the people who to vote for??

You're are quite possibly explaining away unrelated things with conpsiracy theories.....

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Dieval, You mean exit polls were wrong? Well that makes it clear for me. It obviously was a fraud. :rolleyes:

Actually exit polls are very accurate. The surprise is that they were wrong in precinct that the vast majority were registered Dems. Thats what makes it seem like more than an "irregularity"

I guess it couldn't be that the supposed racism you mentioned(i.e. long lines at polling places) might have happened because those area's are densely populated AND the largest voter turnout in history happened??

You dont just not provide poll stations on a hunch that folks might not show up. You provide a number of poll stations relative to registrants. Any argument against that is just stupid.

And MAYBE just MAYBE the cops were CALLED for a reason! MAYBE something happened where they were needed... Did you ever think of that? Did the cops with hands on their guns tell the people who to vote for??

Nope they were just hovering threatengly. White cops in Black princincts. Illegally.

You're are quite possibly explaining away unrelated things with conpsiracy theories.....

Ha, stick to facts like me. Nothing theoretical.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Actually exit polls are very accurate. The surprise is that they were wrong in precinct that the vast majority were registered Dems. Thats what makes it seem like more than an "irregularity"[/b]

Funny how you expect a poll of maybe a few thousand to be accurate for millions...no chance of error there... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You dont just not provide poll stations on a hunch that folks might not show up. You provide a number of poll stations relative to registrants. Any argument against that is just stupid. [/b]

So it couldn't be that there weren't enough people to volunteer to man the polling stations? Maybe these people actually have to WORK and don't have time to volunteer for things like this...Maybe??
<!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel,@

Nope they were just hovering threatengly. White cops in Black princincts. Illegally.[/quote]Again, it couldn't be that they were responding to an incident there and were keeping things from getting worse?
<!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel,
Ha, stick to facts like me. Nothing theoretical.[/quote]
I just explained away each of your theories twice. All you're doing is applying a THEORY to a few incidents and calling it fraud.
You won't be satisfied until the whole election is declared a fraud.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Dieval,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dieval,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Actually exit polls are very accurate. The surprise is that they were wrong in precinct that the vast majority were registered Dems. Thats what makes it seem like more than an "irregularity"[/b] Funny how you expect a poll of maybe a few thousand to be accurate for millions...no chance of error there... :rolleyes: [color=blue]It was accurate everywhere except where a) there was no paper trail b) CNN purposely defrauded their viewers [/color] Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, You dont just not provide poll stations on a hunch that folks might not show up. You provide a number of poll stations relative to registrants. Any argument against that is just stupid.  So it couldn't be that there weren't enough people to volunteer to man the polling stations? Maybe these people actually have to WORK and don't have time to volunteer for things like this...Maybe??[color=blue] Nope, not under staffed, not enough poll stations. Some folks waited 23 hours , but a 12 hour wait was not uncommon. Some peeps prolly lost their jobs over it.[/color] <!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel,@ Nope they were just hovering threatengly. White cops in Black princincts. Illegally.

Again, it couldn't be that they were responding to an incident there and were keeping things from getting worse? [color=blue]nope, I already posted the story. Just spent 10 minutes looking for it again. Do you want me to repost it?[/color]
<!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel,
Ha, stick to facts like me. Nothing theoretical.[/quote]
I just explained away each of your theories twice. All you're doing is applying a THEORY to a few incidents and calling it fraud.
You won't be satisfied until the whole election is declared a fraud.[/b][/quote][color=blue] I just want to know the truth, and it seems to lean that way. I have only posted a couple of "Irregularities" here. There are a ton. Here is a link I just found, I havent fact checked it yet so I cant recommend it to Dieval.
Everyone else click here[/color]

[Dieval]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>[color=blue]It was accurate everywhere except where a) there was no paper trail b) CNN purposely defrauded their viewers [/color] [/b]

I'm sure they were 100% correct everywhere else...that's why they were all wrong.... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> [color=blue] Nope, not under staffed, not enough poll stations. Some folks waited 23 hours , but a 12 hour wait was not uncommon. Some peeps prolly lost their jobs over it.[/color] [/b]

gr8, who runs the poll stations? THE PEOPLE - I believe they are all volunteers, aren't they?. If there aren't enough volunteers to work the stations, what do you do?
<!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel,@
[color=blue]nope, I already posted the story. Just spent 10 minutes looking for it again. Do you want me to repost it?[/color] [/quote]Please...although I'm sure it's fairly one sided, I'd like to take a look at it...
<!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel,
[color=blue] I just want to know the truth, and it seems to lean that way. I have only posted a couple of "Irregularities" here. There are a ton. Here is a link I just found, I havent fact checked it yet so I cant recommend it to Dieval.
Everyone else click here[/color] [/quote]voting irregularities still don't always mean fraud....

[gr8fuldaniel]

Albuquerque Times November 10, 2004 [SIZE=3] Judge eyed on ballots [/SIZE] By Shea Andersen Tribune Reporter A Republican judge in one voting precinct has some explaining to do, Bernalillo County Clerk Mary Herrera said this morning. As the weary clerk's staff continued to examine provisional ballots, attention gathered on one batch in which the disqualified ballots all were Democrat and those that qualified were Republican, Herrera said. Herrera's staff had been combing through 2,000 "questionable" ballots, which led to the certification of 1,400 of them.

Uh-Oh, anyone sense a little bias in "His Honor"

[Starboy]

I don't know what the big deal is about statistical sampling. It is used in all sorts of places all the time. It is how AQL is determined in manufacturing. It can tell you if a process is going wrong. The fact that the exit polls do not match the results is troublesome. It is a possible indication that something is very wrong. This is why you do statistical sampling and not just for voting but for just about everything where quality and trustworthiness are important.

Starboy

[Starboy]

Ya know, we have learned so much about process engineering and trustworthy computing that I am amazed that just about none of what we know is applied to the voting process. We could eliminate all of these shenanigans if we revamped the entire thing using what we currently know.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

I have to apply my 50% rule here. If you can believe only HALF of the charges in any controversy than it merits attention. When so many links to news sources have been posted here, including the conservative Washington Times, I believe, as well as an article in Popular Science several months ago showing the insecurity of these machines, then there is a good possibility there is something there.

That merits attention and not a casual dismissal.

It also brings to mind the Nader campaign to investigate possible irregularities. With his calling for an investigation and the many thousands of people signing up to support him it occurs to me that not ONE of these people (including Nader himself) can POSSIBLY expect a recount to give Nader the election. Why push for this then? The answer is pretty obvious.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Dieval, Here's what I'm saying, in a nut shell - Irregularities do not always mean fraud

Absolutely, and I don't think anyone is saying that irregularities in themselves constitute fraud. In fact, the voting machine issue may NOT be a part of a nefarious plan. But even so, we have the RIGHT to an accurate count and the government has the OBLIGATION to see it IS accurate.
For me, if there is an investigation, recount or whatever it takes to ensure an accurate tally and the REAL numbers are given, if Bush is still the President that would be perfectly acceptable to me.
I want only to have the right man fairly and honestly win this election.
I want enough public pressure on the government to make sure there ARE no "irregularities"
I want to make certain THIS election was eventually done correctly so that the NEXT election will be, and the next one etc..

As an American, is it too much for me to ask that my one lousy vote is correctly counted and not nullified by a slew of bogus votes?

[Dieval]

Originally posted by Scribbler1, Absolutely, and I don't think anyone is saying that irregularities in themselves constitute fraud.

gr8 has been saying all along that it can't be anything BUT fraud.