FRAUD!

[bullshitdetector]

Originally posted by Dieval,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dieval,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel, Dieval, you are superstitious if you think all .org sites are Conspiritorious. This is a good read: The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepency by Stephen F Freeman,PhD    University of Pennsylvania Hey, has anyone heard if they counted the military vote yet, or even how many can be expected?

Let me get this straight, you're trying to convince me that you don't post conspiracy theory website links by posting yet another one?? Interesting logic.... If you think i'm superstitious about sites, you're right, and I think that you're not nearly superstitious enough when it comes to these sites.[/b][/quote]

Thats right, thats what hes doing and if you dont fall for it both feet first you are superstitious. Like how that works, pretty neat huh?

[bullshitdetector]

Originally posted by kharmajunkie,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kharmajunkie,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-bullshitdetector, [ I have read plenty about it, and I will take whatever position I like. It is easy for you to call me lazy and a hack sitting behind a keyboard, slick, but it isn't very effective because I dont give a shit what you think of me, got it? Now that we have that little campfire vigil out of the way, if you want to put and end to something I suggest you take it to the source of your disdain, hmm? We didn't get the shaft, we got what we got, you don't like it? stand in line with millions of others, like the Rolling Stones said, "You can't always get what you want". Get over it.

No, I don't "got it". I don't get people like you that are shown the problem
but instead of making an effort to fix it you quote a stones song. Screw
the constitution, Jagger wrote a diddy to make me feel better.

So the position you take is that we have problems with our electoral system but that's ok because you read plenty and will take whatever position you want. I've never talked to you before BSD but I take it you are a Bush supporter. Would you have the same opinion if your guy lost because of a poorly constructed electoral system? Or fraud?[/b][/quote]

Do I have to be a Bush supporter to know that all this whining and crying is nonsense? And I am sure you don't get it, too bad because I thought you had hope. Jagger wrote a diddy that at least makes sense and made him a lot of cash, what is all this whining and insulting getting you? Nothing. I did lose my vote preference to Clinton 2 times, and I accepted it. Does that make you feel any better?

[bullshitdetector]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-bullshitdetector, You obviously aren't going to play nice and enjoy acting the wounded lamb crying about moderators, I dont want to hear anymore whining about moderators out of you. Got it?

No I dont "got it", do you?
The moderators have asked us to govern ourselves here as best we can. If you have an etiquette problem, it is advised to try and address the problem yourself, before you go whining to a moderator. (Edit to add: Thats what I was doing)

No Ad Hominems If I were to say, "you are a moron, therefore your views are wrong", that would be an ad hominem.  Ad hominem's are logical fallacies. They do not help arguments, and they will not be tolerated. Other forms of personal attacks should also be reported-just use the "report abuse" button within the suspected post. Be Aware of Logical Fallacies: Logical Fallacies No "one-liners" or article pastes Try to avoid posting "I don't agree", or "you're wrong...etc". When someone takes the time to form a debate topic, or a decent reply you should do the same. Also, if you are going to post a huge article, please summarize it within your post, give some opinions, and provide the link to the full article. Do not just paste an article you found somewhere.

Keep these in mind.
Also some people consider "Conspiracy Theorist" to be an insult. If you attack me with an insult my human nature will want to retalliate and the whole damn thing goes up in flames.
Lets agree to be more civil, ok? I will do my best

(edit to add the rest of etiquette #2)[/b][/quote]


Look, it would'nt take much to find you throwing the slurs around this place, all one has to do is look at your posting history. Calling people bullshit numerous times and big mouth when nobody addressed you personally is the same thing. Go ahead and keep it up, it just shows how honest your agenda is here. You are stating something that is not fact, it is comprised of theories, beliefs and opinions from yourself and others like you who post them on their websites. They are not news sources, they are not credible, so, they are not fact. You are insisting they are and if anyone disagrees you go off on tangents of cover ups and christ knows what, that by definition is a conspiracy theorist. I can't help it, thats what it is...... insulted? change your behavior.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, Dieval, you are superstitious if you think all .org sites are Conspiritorious. This is a good read: The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepency by Stephen F Freeman,PhD University of Pennsylvania Hey, has anyone heard if they counted the military vote yet, or even how many can be expected?

I started to take look at your link and came across this -

All of the 2004 exit poll data that I use here is unofficial, not meant to be released directly to the public.

How can you compare results and make any sort of claim about an election when the data you're using is UNOFFICIAL? Wait, does that mean it's a conspiracy theory??

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by bullshitdetector, Anything is possible scribbler, that isn't the question, the question is whether this is to be considered fact or not, which it isn't. It didn't happen, its as simple as that.

Agreed, the question IS if it is fact or not. But whether it is a fact or not depends on the outcome of an investigation. There seems to be smoke, so we need to find out for sure if there is fire. It's interesting that you (unless you are a high ranking member of government) are stating absolutely that it is NOT a fact. I have seen enough to feel doubt and I will not be convinced based on your word.

I don't see where your objection is concerning an investigation. If you are right, the Bush administration as well as the Republican party will be vindicated and no cloud about the election will hang over them. Also, real proof will silence thouse who believe fraud has been committed.

[kharmajunkie]

Originally posted by bullshitdetector, ] Do I have to be a Bush supporter to know that all this whining and crying is nonsense? And I am sure you don't get it, too bad because I thought you had hope. Jagger wrote a diddy that at least makes sense and made him a lot of cash, what is all this whining and insulting getting you? Nothing. I did lose my vote preference to Clinton 2 times, and I accepted it. Does that make you feel any better?

I'm not whining; I'm pointing out the fault in our system. It doesn't matter whether you support Bush or not, all of us have to realize the faults in our
system and fix them.
Our electoral problems are not the fault of Bush or the GOP; it's the stringent two party system that keeps the best and brightest from all parties from really challenging the status quo.
It even affects the candidates from the RNC and DNC. Neither John Kerry nor George Bush is truly the best man from their respective parties and I believe most Dems and Repubs would concur. How can a President with an approval rating as low as Bush's has been not be challenged in the primaries? How come a socially lib/ fiscal conservative like Howard Dean lose to a guy like Kerry who never really distinguished himself during his Senate career? Because their big money, corporately manipulated parties won't let anyone with real ideas for change to screw up their profitable game.
Oh and no, I didn't vote for Clinton and I held this same opinion during that administration.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Dieval,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dieval,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel, This is a good read: The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepency by Stephen F Freeman,PhD    University of Pennsylvania

I started to take look at your link and came across this -

How can you compare results and make any sort of claim about an election when the data you're using is UNOFFICIAL? Wait, does that mean it's a conspiracy theory??[/b][/quote] Not necessarily, it means it was a timely piece and he didnt do all the routine fact checking. I wasnt trying to pull a fast one on anyone. Did you also see the part where I wrote "This is an interesting read" ? That means it may or may not be helpful to everyone, its just interesting and intelligent.
That was just a tid-bit I throwing out for people (not directed at you) to use for their own edification. You dont have to accept everything as carved in stone. The man does have a credential and he used published facts. Take what you need and leave the rest.

Why dont you want an investigation into possible election fraud. You actually want an unelected ______ for president, again?

You really think everything is just hunky-dory?

Bush lost. You will see.

[bullshitdetector]

Originally posted by kharmajunkie,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kharmajunkie,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-bullshitdetector, ] Do I have to be a Bush supporter to know that all this whining and crying is nonsense? And I am sure you don't get it, too bad because I thought you had hope. Jagger wrote a diddy that at least makes sense and made him a lot of cash, what is all this whining and insulting getting you? Nothing. I did lose my vote preference to Clinton 2 times, and I accepted it. Does that make you feel any better?

I'm not whining; I'm pointing out the fault in our system. It doesn't matter whether you support Bush or not, all of us have to realize the faults in our
system and fix them.
Our electoral problems are not the fault of Bush or the GOP; it's the stringent two party system that keeps the best and brightest from all parties from really challenging the status quo.
It even affects the candidates from the RNC and DNC. Neither John Kerry nor George Bush is truly the best man from their respective parties and I believe most Dems and Repubs would concur. How can a President with an approval rating as low as Bush's has been not be challenged in the primaries? How come a socially lib/ fiscal conservative like Howard Dean lose to a guy like Kerry who never really distinguished himself during his Senate career? Because their big money, corporately manipulated parties won't let anyone with real ideas for change to screw up their profitable game.
Oh and no, I didn't vote for Clinton and I held this same opinion during that administration.[/b][/quote]

If I recall correctly you stated I must be a Bush supporter in lieu of my stance, which is why I said that.

Dean lost because he is a lunatic, I have met him numerous times so I am not speaking out of term. He is not level headed enough to run this country, just trust me on that if you will, if not thats ok too. I know the two party system is limiting, I would agree with that. The trouble with the approval ratings is the polls and who placed them, polls are only a taste of reality based on those who use them and who is the target audience taking them, the final poll, the real one, is our vote on election day.

[gr8fuldaniel]

[SIZE=3] Worst Voter Error Is Apathy Toward Irregularities [/SIZE] Washington Post By Donna Britt Friday, November 12, 2004 Is anyone surprised that accusations of voter disenfranchisement and irregularities abound after the most passionately contested presidential campaign in memory? Is anybody stunned that the mainstream media appear largely unconcerned? To many people's thinking, too few citizens were discouraged from voting to matter. Those people would suggest that not nearly enough votes for John Kerry were missed or siphoned away to overturn President Bush's win. To which I'd respond: more.....

I am just plain shocked. Somebody needs to put up a reward for any information leading to the arrest and conviction of anybody involved in election fraud. That should send the cock roaches scrambling. There are people who know stuff and we need to offer protection and rewards to those brave souls who can be real heros and expose crime in the highest places of this once great country. It is nothing more than a Banana Republic until the perps are brought to justice. And I am not talking about the small time hacks alone, but also the real criminals the ones who had the most to gain and rewarded those who did the deed.
God save America
God damn GWB

[Dieval]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Dieval,@ <!--QuoteBegin-gr8fuldaniel, This is a good read: The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepency by Stephen F Freeman,PhD University of Pennsylvania I started to take look at your link and came across this - How can you compare results and make any sort of claim about an election when the data you're using is UNOFFICIAL? Wait, does that mean it's a conspiracy theory??

Not necessarily, it means it was a timely piece and he didnt do all the routine fact checking. I wasnt trying to pull a fast one on anyone. Did you also see the part where I wrote "This is an interesting read" ? That means it may or may not be helpful to everyone, its just interesting and intelligent.
That was just a tid-bit I throwing out for people (not directed at you) to use for their own edification. You dont have to accept everything as carved in stone. The man does have a credential and he used published facts. Take what you need and leave the rest.

Why dont you want an investigation into possible election fraud. You actually want an unelected ______ for president, again?

You really think everything is just hunky-dory?

Bush lost. You will see.[/b][/quote]
So he used a mixture of published fact and unofficial data? interesting...

It's not so much that I don't want an investigation, it's that I don't think it's the big deal you're making it out to be...

Were there some issues? Sure, it's not perfect...
Was the whole election a fraud? Doubtful, at best.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Dieval, Were there some issues? Sure, it's not perfect... Was the whole election a fraud? Doubtful, at best.

What you should be asking is not "Was the whole election a fraud?", but, "Was there enough fraud in the state of Ohio or Florida to change the outcome of the election?". I think there is plenty of evidence to warrant further investigation.

Starboy

[Dieval]

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Dieval, Were there some issues? Sure, it's not perfect... Was the whole election a fraud? Doubtful, at best.

What you should be asking is not "Was the whole election a fraud?", but, "Was there enough fraud in the state of Ohio or Florida to change the outcome of the election?". I think there is plenty of evidence to warrant further investigation.

Starboy[/b][/quote]
Check back on page 12 of this thread...I posted an article that said -

Democrats won't push for hand recounts this year, because they wouldn't change the results, a point backed by election specialists.

[Starboy]

I don't know about that. The magnitude of the errors I have heard of in Ohio could very will overcome the difference in totals for the two candidates.

Starboy

[Dieval]

Originally posted by Starboy, I don't know about that. The magnitude of the errors I have heard of in Ohio could very will overcome the difference in totals for the two candidates. Starboy

The officials don't seem to think it would make a difference...

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Dieval, The officials don't seem to think it would make a difference...

I would expect that answer. It is not partisanship. Most people think that their work is good. Don't ask the cook if their food is good. You must taste it for youself.

Starboy

[bullshitdetector]

Maybe you should head off the investigation, then, nobody is stopping you.

[gr8fuldaniel]

This is Dievals article:

''I get why people are frustrated, but they did not steal this election," Corrigan said. ''There were a few problems here and there in the election. But unlike 2000, there is no doubt that they actually got more votes than we did, and they got them in the states that mattered."

Well then there shouldnt be any problem with an investigation. On the other hand Bush supposedly won by such a low margin that at 1:41 AM CNN showed a flip-flop in the lead from Kerry (51% to 49%) to Bush(52% to 47% CNN exit poll). All Kerry needed was Ohio to win. Yet 7 hours later Kerry Quit. Militery vote, provisional votes and 150,000 regular votes had yet to be counted. Ballots were still being counted in college and black neighborhoods(Heavily Dem) because their polling stations were under equipped. Some people had to wait in line 23 hours!! It was common to wait 12 hours in Democratic registered areas.

From your same article:

''The kind of thing that has to happen is a full-scale investigation," said Troy Duster, a New York University professor who is president of the American Sociological Association. ''It sounds like a paranoid fantasy, but I think the data suggests that even if Bush won, he didn't win by the kind of margins that are out there. We have a crisis here of potential legitimacy with all the stuff going on on the Web, and the way to deal with this is to do the research."

If we ignore this tragedy we are doomed. Congressmen agree. We are getting the investigation we deserve.

[bullshitdetector]

He's right, it does smack of paranoid fantasy or at least a conspiracy theory.

[Dieval]

Tragedy?
Tragedy??

there is no doubt that they actually got more votes than we did

Bush > Kerry
That is not a tragedy...

potential legitimacy

Does not mean there definitly was fraud.

[bullshitdetector]

Originally posted by Dieval, Tragedy? Tragedy?? Bush > Kerry That is not a tragedy... Does not mean there definitly was fraud.

It means the conspiracy theorists have yet another cause to justify their angst and misery in life.