Why Do You Trust the Feds?

[PatrickHenry]

Or if you don't, say why.

I think they have a hidden agenda to steamroll the Constitution, arrogating to themselves powers not authorized.

But maybe from the other side's perspective this is justified and Washington DC is perceived as a friend to the citizenry.

[Scribbler1]

I do not trust them, and haven't for a long time. I happen to strongly believe in the old saying "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me TWICE, shame on ME"
If our government was a single person, he would be classified as a pathalogical liar. If you could list all the mini-scandals over government lies going back only 30 or so years, you'd have a small encyclopedia.
I have unfortunately become so used to being lied to that I don't believe anything from the government, to the point that I feel badly for the occasional honest politician with integrity who tries to convince us he is telling the truth.
What I need is a period of time where NO lies emanate from the government before I can believe anything.

[gr8fuldaniel]

No I dont trust them. Trust has to be earned and this Admin especially has taken steps to alienate the people from our Reps at the top.

We deserve transparency. If it is refused, it is for a reason.

If they want our trust they can start by demanding a full and open investigation of the suspicious election and reopen the investigation of 911.
We are all 2nd class citizens, or worse, soon to be shivering denizens under an iron fisted rule of tyranny. It always comes in increments. Beware, we must not trust them until they start coming clean on these crimes against us.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, Or if you don't, say why. I think they have a hidden agenda to steamroll the Constitution, arrogating to themselves powers not authorized. But maybe from the other side's perspective this is justified and Washington DC is perceived as a friend to the citizenry.

I don't. They could arrest me! how can I trust them?

[Dieval]

Have any of you actually had a run-in with the "feds"(I'm assuming by the word "feds" that you mean some sort of Federal Law Enforcement agency) that resulted in being arrested? If so, please explain what happened.

[Starboy]

I guess the question boils down to, trust them to do what?

Starboy

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Starboy, trust them to do what?

My question was about the level of trust a basically decent person would like to have for their government. Like leveling with the public about matters that aren't actually "national security" secrets. Like doing what is best for the great mass of hard working citizens instead of catering to an elite group.

There are some times when "trust" is essential: How about a crisis involving public health, like an epidemic? If quarantine is announced how can an untrustworthy Fed Gov have complete citizen cooperation. If people have been lied to and burned, why would they believe that the gov was trying to help instead of pull a fast one?

Or a war: If the citizens have seen bogus pretexts for war, how will they react to another threatening crisis? And so on...

[Dieval]

Originally posted by Dieval, Have any of you actually had a run-in with the "feds"(I'm assuming by the word "feds" that you mean some sort of Federal Law Enforcement agency) that resulted in being arrested? If so, please explain what happened.

Let me rephrase my question a bit, since no one seems to have had any run-ins with the "feds"....

Have any of you actually had a run-in with the "feds" that have given you reason to distrust them? If so, please explain what happened.

[PatrickHenry]

My run-in happens annually in April. That's when their "protection" racket comes due. They claim to be constitutionally entitled to my money, but I tracked it down and they:
Don't comply with the US Constitution.
Spend the protection money on BS and perks for themselves.
Interfere with my life by means of various useless and counterproductive regulations.
Lie regularly about how much I need them, while causing trouble all over the world.

So "F" 'em. When they earn my trust, I will trust 'em.

[gr8fuldaniel]

CS Monitor CIA agent publicly chides White House for terror war Defying protocol, analyst Mike Scheuer criticizes the administration for Iraq war and losing focus on Al Qaeda. By Faye Bowers | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor WASHINGTON – It's a little like yelling an obscenity at a wedding. In the etiquette of Washington, it has always been an unwritten rule that members of the CIA don't publicly criticize the people they work for - namely the US government. From the agency's inception some 50 years ago, the mantra of top officials in particular has been to provide "hard" information - estimates and analyses - not public opinions about their bosses' policies or veracity. Now a senior CIA official is violating the trench-coat oath - and roiling already sensitive relations between the White House and the nation's top spy agency. It comes at a time of major reform of the nation's intelligence apparatus. Mike Scheuer, a 22-year veteran who works in the CIA's Counterterrorist Center and is a former head of its Osama bin Laden unit, is criticizing the Bush administration for going to war in Iraq and for the way it has conducted the war on terror in general. And he's doing it very publicly.

Washington Post Deputy Chief Resigns From CIA Agency Is Said to Be in Turmoil Under New Director Goss By Dana Priest and Walter Pincus Washington Post Staff Writers Saturday, November 13, 2004; Page A01 The deputy director of the CIA resigned yesterday after a series of confrontations over the past week between senior operations officials and CIA Director Porter J. Goss's new chief of staff that have left the agency in turmoil, according to several current and former CIA officials. John E. McLaughlin, a 32-year CIA veteran who was acting director for two months this summer until Goss took over, resigned after warning Goss that his top aide, former Capitol Hill staff member Patrick Murray, was treating senior officials disrespectfully and risked widespread resignations, the officials said.

Seems like the Feds cant trust the Feds

[Dieval]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, My run-in happens annually in April. That's when their "protection" racket comes due. They claim to be constitutionally entitled to my money, but I tracked it down and they: Don't comply with the US Constitution. Spend the protection money on BS and perks for themselves. Interfere with my life by means of various useless and counterproductive regulations. Lie regularly about how much I need them, while causing trouble all over the world. So "F" 'em. When they earn my trust, I will trust 'em.

I'm guessing you're talking about taxes?

[PatrickHenry]

Specifically "income" taxes. Heh.

I don't trust them but I will continue to pay. The alternative is terror in my own life...

[Dieval]

wow, that's a pretty good answer to my (original)question PH.... :rolleyes:

No one likes to pay income tax, but it's a part of life..

[PatrickHenry]

The most unfortunate part of the FedGov is their ability to "borrow" money, obligating future taxpayers for present expenditures. Tax cuts are handy, bringing joy to many hearts. But without spending restraint there will come a day of reckoning.

Why does Washington feel the need to run everything? Why can't they sometimes say, "Not our problem. See, it says right here in the constitution that is the States' responsibility ( or individuals)"

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constit...on/amendment10/

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Dieval, Have any of you actually had a run-in with the "feds"(I'm assuming by the word "feds" that you mean some sort of Federal Law Enforcement agency) that resulted in being arrested? If so, please explain what happened.

No, I haven't. And I also havent ever had a need for them either.

[macnpat]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, Or if you don't, say why. I think they have a hidden agenda to steamroll the Constitution, arrogating to themselves powers not authorized. But maybe from the other side's perspective this is justified and Washington DC is perceived as a friend to the citizenry.

What kind of trust? Do I have the trust of a child? Sure I do, when it comes to trusting my Parents and the God I worship.

But, if you are talking about "people" whether they live next door, work in the Govt. or both, of course I don't trust like a child trusts. I ask questions, I get information when I am involved in State affairs and I see Govts as people like you and me. I have to go by the laws, they have to abide by the laws.

I have worked for both State and Federal Govt. I've mostly seen hard-working, concientious individuals who don't act any differently on the job than you or I would.

The real trust issue is about elected and appointed officials. You give them a mandate and you have to trust that they will uphold and defend the Constitution and work for the people. Sometimes they fail and sometimes they are simply crooks. But, the process continues on unabated with rumors, impeachments, the occasional scandal and a few bums thrown out along the way.

It is not a question of trusting the institution, but rather those who run it. They usually work for someone and in the case of the govt. they work for you and are paid by you. So, you shouldn't trust blindly anyway. You have a responsibility to see that they are doing the job they were put in office to do.

So, do I trust the Feds? As much as I trust anyone as an adult. I may have been born yesterday, but it tweren't last nite.

[gr8fuldaniel]

How can I truet someone who kills thousands and then lies about it? How do you open your soul to those who do not value human life as sacred. Do you trust a dog when his ears are back?
Helen Thomas conveys my sentiment pretty well:

Attack on Fallujah can't be justified Seattle Post Intelligencer By HELEN THOMAS HEARST NEWSPAPERS WASHINGTON -- Do Americans of good conscience really believe that we are making the United States more secure by bombing and killing the people of Fallujah? That's the justification President Bush and his hawkish circle have given for their brutal offensive against the Sunni stronghold as they push ahead for the total military occupation of Iraq. Why are we killing Iraqis in their own country? And why are our forces being killed? Of course it was convenient and the better part of valor for the president to wait until after the election to start dropping the 500-pound bombs on Fallujah as well as raking the streets with artillery and aircraft firepower. Bush, who has never been in war, flaunted his commander in chief status during the campaign. But clearly he did not want to put it to the test at Fallujah before Election Day. Had he done so, the president would have had to explain why he took the United States into Iraq and why he was targeting innocent Iraqis. From day one, the U.S. government has been hard-pressed to find legal justification for being in Iraq by force. U.S. military moves were contrary to the U.N. Charter and the laws that came from the Nuremberg Tribunal after World War II. Under the U.N. Charter, armed force by a state against the sovereignty, territorial integrity and independence of another state is a violation of international law. Does anyone believe that hand-picked interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, on the CIA payroll for years, is a free soul? Did we really make war against Iraq out of the goodness of our hearts to ensure free elections for Iraqis?

[Starboy]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, My question was about the level of trust a basically decent person would like to have for their government. Like leveling with the public about matters that aren't actually "national security" secrets. Like doing what is best for the great mass of hard working citizens instead of catering to an elite group. There are some times when "trust" is essential: How about a crisis involving public health, like an epidemic? If quarantine is announced how can an untrustworthy Fed Gov have complete citizen cooperation. If people have been lied to and burned, why would they believe that the gov was trying to help instead of pull a fast one? Or a war: If the citizens have seen bogus pretexts for war, how will they react to another threatening crisis? And so on...

This are good points Patrick but as far as I know these have never been successfully addressed in any government. There are those that would say that "catering to an elite group" has been what this country has been doing from the very start with only white male land owners being allowed to vote and as a result for a very long time being the only people to hold the top political offices. And even so the founding fathers didn't trust the populace to protect our freedoms which is why they were place in the bill of rights. The idea was that some things should never be up for vote by the people since there would always be a chance that they would vote to screw some minority. Then there is the separation of powers, again a statement of mistrust. We are not supposed to trust our elected officials; we have created these three branches that are supposed to keep an untrusting eye on each other. However if a particular group of people hold enough offices and appoint enough judges then all that is out the window.

No, can't say if there ever was trust of the feds, can't say that the feds ever even trusted themselves, can't say if anyone should ever trust the feds to watch out for the common folks. But as you point out, the common folk have become an ass where they will tune into their TVs and be ditto heads and not think but just do what they are told.

As Franklin said when ask, “Well Doctor what have we got a republic
or a monarchy."

He answered, "A republic if you can keep it.”

There is only one party at fault here and it is us. We no longer comprehend enough of what we are doing to keep the republic.

Starboy

[macnpat]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, How can I truet someone who kills thousands and then lies about it? How do you open your soul to those who do not value human life as sacred. Do you trust a dog when his ears are back?

You are describing Saddam Hussein. And yet when we invaded Iraq because we didn't trust him, we were met with this type of criticism.


His criminal record for killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis is reknowned but no one would lift a finger to stop him. The Taliban in Afghanistan was shooting women in the back of the head and dismembering people in huge stadiums but no one cared.

Fallujah is filled with slaughter houses and demonstrates how the enemy of the free world treats their Muslim brothers and Sisters and yet some still use their suffering as an excuse to slam the U.S.

It's about as low as humans can go. And Soldiers are about as noble as one can be in this world when laying their lives down for others.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by macnpat, It's about as low as humans can go. And Soldiers are about as noble as one can be in this world when laying their lives down for others.

Agreed, which is why I find it so difficult how anyone that could hold such an opinion would be a supporter of Bush and the republicans. He has done nothing but sent those men off to a meat grinder.

Starboy