Why Do You Trust the Feds?

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-macnpat, It's about as low as humans can go.  And Soldiers are about as noble as one can be in this world when laying their lives down for others.

Agreed, which is why I find it so difficult how anyone that could hold such an opinion would be a supporter of Bush and the republicans. He has done nothing but sent those men off to a meat grinder.

Starboy[/b][/quote]

Bush is standing for an American principle that separates the U.S. from every country in the World. Our troops have been and always will be a Godsend to people throughout the world who long for freedom from oppression.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by macnpat, Bush is standing for an American principle that separates the U.S. from every country in the World. Our troops have been and always will be a Godsend to people throughout the world who long for freedom from oppression.

And exactly where did the founding fathers state that?

Starboy

[Starboy]

macnpat, go back and study your history. When this country was founded it was different from every other government on the planet. Not because it exalted the rule of god but for exactly the opposite. At the time exalting the rule of god and the monarchs that were supposedly anointed by god was the standard issue when it came to government. The idea that the power of government derived from the people was an entirely new idea. The idea that people are the ones that should determine how they are governed was a radical idea. A country founded on these principles does not tell other people how they should govern themselves. For such a government founded on such a principle it is not a matter of course that we should be a "Godsend" for any peoples on the earth that seek freedom for themselves. Sure we should help those people that ask, but not as we are doing in Iraq but as the French helped us so long ago when we were fighting for our freedom. The French did not give us our freedom but only helped tip the balance in our favor. Those that understand freedom know that it cannot be given to you. You must fight for it. And people in the US must realize that those insurgents in Iraq are the freedom fighters of that country and we are just invaders. The sooner we leave the better for all around.

Starboy

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Starboy, macnpat, go back and study your history. When this country was founded it was different from every other government on the planet. Not because it exalted the rule of god but for exactly the opposite. At the time exalting the rule of god and the monarchs that were supposedly anointed by god was the standard issue when it came to government.

I will accept that to a degree. Keep in mind that we structured our concept of freedom on ancient govts. We were not unique that way. The Romans and the Greeks had similar political attitudes about governing.

The idea that the power of government derived from the people was an entirely new idea. The idea that people are the ones that should determine how they are governed was a radical idea. A country founded on these principles does not tell other people how they should govern themselves.

Maybe you should study your history a tad yourself. We were not so radical in our concept of checks and balances, as much as determined to remain free from oppression whether by church or state.

For such a government founded on such a principle it is not a matter of course that we should be a "Godsend" for any peoples on the earth that seek freedom for themselves.

It sure is when it is our interests being threatened by a declaration of war or an uncooperative attitude towards peace.

Sure we should help those people that ask, but not as we are doing in Iraq but as the French helped us so long ago when we were fighting for our freedom.

Our govt. was not a threat to the French. So why did the French intervene? We actually have more of a reason to be in Iraq than the French had to be here in America. Or is this some double-standard you have tripped yourself up on?

The French did not give us our freedom but only helped tip the balance in our favor. Those that understand freedom know that it cannot be given to you. You must fight for it.

That is true. I think that the Iraqis will fight but they come from years of oppression, brutality, murder and fear. The U.S. simply didn't like being taxed by a country so far away. "No taxation without representation." We were not being starved, tortured, raped, murdered and thrown in mass graves by the hundreds of thousands. Iraq needs help to stand up again and become sovereign. Someone has got to understand the importance of this. As of now, Iraq is the target of Al-Qaida who are killing muslims and stirring up insurgents against Iraq's own best interests.

And people in the US must realize that those insurgents in Iraq are the freedom fighters of that country and we are just invaders. The sooner we leave the better for all around. Starboy

No, we must not give the Al-qaida-supported insurgents our support by pulling out. It would be disasterous.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by macnpat Maybe you should study your history a tad yourself. We were not so radical in our concept of checks and balances, as much as determined to remain free from oppression whether by church or state.

You forget that one of the oppressors that our founders envisioned was our selves. That is why there is a bill of rights. It was the idea that there are some things that are not open to a vote of the majority. The bill of rights encapsulates the American values of this country. You will not find these values in the bible or anywhere else. This was a new idea by the way. And yes the idea of a democracy was an old idea but we do not have a democracy. We have a republic, and I realize that Plato also advocated a republic but we do not have the republic of Plato either. No our experiment was something completely different. Go back and study your history.

It sure is when it is our interests being threatened by a declaration of war or an uncooperative attitude towards peace.

This gives us the right to defend ourselves, but if I recall Iraq did not attack us.

Our govt. was not a threat to the French. So why did the French intervene? We actually have more of a reason to be in Iraq than the French had to be here in America. Or is this some double-standard you have tripped yourself up on?

I know the French intervened for French self interest and by the wits of Franklin. That still doesn't change the fact that theirs was a good example of how to help people obtain their own freedom. BTW, it is what we did in Afghanistan, and for all the problems in Afghanistan it is going so very much better than Iraq ever will.

That is true. I think that the Iraqis will fight but they come from years of oppression, brutality, murder and fear. The U.S. simply didn't like being taxed by a country so far away. "No taxation without representation." We were not being starved, tortured, raped, murdered and thrown in mass graves by the hundreds of thousands. Iraq needs help to stand up again and become sovereign. Someone has got to understand the importance of this. As of now, Iraq is the target of Al-Qaida who are killing muslims and stirring up insurgents against Iraq's own best interests.

What makes you think that many of the insurgents are not Iraqis for a free Iraq? We call them insurgents simply because they do not want what we want for Iraq. Apparently we know better than they on how they should be a free people. If any invader came to this county and did the same they should expect to get what we are getting in Iraq. I understand the importance of this. It will be a great blight on our country because it will become obvious that it was completely against the principles that we claim to stand for.

No, we must not give the Al-qaida-supported insurgents our support by pulling out. It would be disasterous.

Way too late for that. Humpty Dumtpy had a great fall.

Starboy

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Starboy, You forget that one of the oppressors that our founders envisioned was our selves. That is why there is a bill of rights. It was the idea that there are some things that are not open to a vote of the majority. The bill of rights encapsulates the American values of this country. You will not find these values in the bible or anywhere else. This was a new idea by the way. And yes the idea of a democracy was an old idea but we do not have a democracy. We have a republic, and I realize that Plato also advocated a republic but we do not have the republic of Plato either. No our experiment was something completely different. Go back and study your history.

Why should I go back and study my history for this diatribe which has nothing to do with your original point. If you want to lecture someone, please, I have better sources from which to extract fodder for reasonable discourse than you.

This gives us the right to defend ourselves, but if I recall Iraq did not attack us.

Nor did Bosnia, nor Granada, nor a half a dozen other places I can name where U.S. presence was mandated by circumstances. We don't send troops out to risk their lives because people like you sit around in your safe haven and decide what's worth the effort and what isn't. We'd be long conquered, if we weren't still a bunch of British colonies.

I know the French intervened for French self interest and by the wits of Franklin. That still doesn't change the fact that theirs was a good example of how to help people obtain their own freedom.

Your 20/20 historical hindsight makes you a bit too arrogant for my tastes.

BTW, it is what we did in Afghanistan, and for all the problems in Afghanistan it is going so very much better than Iraq ever will.

Only if people like you allow Al-qaida to determine where we draw the line between oppression and freedom.

What makes you think that many of the insurgents are not Iraqis for a free Iraq? We call them insurgents simply because they do not want what we want for Iraq. Apparently we know better than they on how they should be a free people. If any invader came to this county and did the same they should expect to get what we are getting in Iraq. I understand the importance of this. It will be a great blight on our country because it will become obvious that it was completely against the principles that we claim to stand for.

I spent all this time with you on this thread to find in your last post, you don't have a clue what is going on around you.

My bad.

Way too late for that. Humpty Dumtpy had a great fall. Starboy

Cute, but not germane to the discussion.

[Starboy]

macnpat, why is it that whenever you are backed into a corner you start attacking the messenger?

Starboy

[gr8fuldaniel]

I agree Star, we need an exit strategy, post-haste. We have done enough damage and will only be chasing our tail (politically) while we continue to lose good Americans for ......um, what are we fighting for this week?

Yall see this? I know these arent the same numbers as CNN is posting, but can we really trust CNN with numbers after Nov 2, 2004?

al Jazeera [SIZE=3] US wounded in Falluja hits 412 [/SIZE] Saturday 13 November 2004, 20:36 Makka Time, 17:36 GMT More than 70 US soldiers, most of them injured in Falluja, have been flown from Iraq to a military hospital in Germany. A C-141 transport plane brought the 73 newest patients to the US Air Force's Ramstein base on Saturday morning. The 73 new patients at the US military's Landstuhl Regional Medical Centre pushed the number of arrivals this week to 412, nearly all of whom were injured in Falluja, according to a hospital spokeswoman. Military officials could not provide an exact breakdown on the number of wounded from Falluja or the nature of their injuries. Bed capacity at the hospital in rural western Germany has been increased to handle the influx. Landstuhl is the biggest US military hospital overseas, and its doctors also handle soldiers with injuries and illnesses not related to combat. It usually treats between 30 and 50 injured military personnel a day. US and Iraqi forces launched a ground assault on Falluja late on Monday.

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Starboy, macnpat, why is it that whenever you are backed into a corner you start attacking the messenger? Starboy

I didn't know I was backed in a corner. Perhaps you can show me where? I would appreciate you getting back on topic, in fact.

Thanks.

[Starboy]

All that whinning about me personally is usually what people do when they are at a loss to say anything else.

Starboy

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Starboy, All that whinning about me personally is usually what people do when they are at a loss to say anything else. Starboy

Is that a fact? Does this mean you can't point out where I'm backed in a corner specifically, so I'm whining? LOLOLOLOL

[Starboy]

Is that a fact? Does this mean you can't point out where I'm backed in a corner specifically, so I'm whining? LOLOLOLOL

If you insist I will show you.

Why should I go back and study my history for this diatribe which has nothing to do with your original point. If you want to lecture someone, please, I have better sources from which to extract fodder for reasonable discourse than you.

Rather than this diatribe you could have just asked the question:
“What does this have to do with your original point?”

Your 20/20 historical hindsight makes you a bit too arrogant for my tastes.

Here is another good example. Apparently it is arrogant to try to learn from history.

Originally posted by Starboy BTW, it is what we did in Afghanistan, and for all the problems in Afghanistan it is going so very much better than Iraq ever will. Only if people like you allow Al-qaida to determine where we draw the line between oppression and freedom.

Here is another good example. I am not allowing Al Qaeda to do anything. And US forces are not too good at stopping them either. And the reasons for this have nothing to do with me or them.

Cute, but not germane to the discussion.

Perhaps you are not up on your nursery rhymes.

Humpty dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty dumpty had a great fall
All the King's horses
And all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again

Many of such rhymes have a history of social commentary and this one is no exception. And once again it comes back around again. Humpty dumpty is Iraq and the King and his men and horses are Dubya and the US military. Iraq cannot be fixed in this way. If it is to be fixed then it will not take soldiers but diplomats and thinkers. Something that Dubya appears to be clueless of.

Now instead of stating that my reference to a nursery rhyme was not germane you could have asked how it was germane, but once again you have shown your need for an education. Perhaps that is why I find the need to lecture you so much.

Starboy

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Starboy, Perhaps you are not up on your nursery rhymes. Humpty dumpty sat on a wall Humpty dumpty had a great fall All the King's horses And all the King's men Couldn't put Humpty together again Many of such rhymes have a history of social commentary and this one is no exception. And once again it comes back around again. Humpty dumpty is Iraq and the King and his men and horses are Dubya and the US military. Iraq cannot be fixed in this way. If it is to be fixed then it will not take soldiers but diplomats and thinkers. Something that Dubya appears to be clueless of. Now instead of stating that my reference to a nursery rhyme was not germane you could have asked how it was germane, but once again you have shown your need for an education. Perhaps that is why I find the need to lecture you so much. Starboy

I always wondered why the nick "Starboy". I guess I had to find out the long tedious way.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by macnpat, I always wondered why the nick "Starboy". I guess I had to find out the long tedious way.

macnpat, you can't win for loosing. I chose the name Starboy because I am an amateur astronomer.

Starboy

When men are call'n one another names and make'n faces
and all the worlds a jangle and ajar
I contemplate on interstellar spaces
and gaze upon a star

Mark Twain (except for the last sentance, that is mine, the original sentance is "and smoke a mild cigar")

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, Why Do You Trust the Feds?

Feds ???
I barely trust myself :-)))

[PatrickHenry]

Well, this old thread deteriorated into an insult-fest, but at least it didn't get booted into the neverland of Miscellaneous. Starboy, so long. You always had a hard time staying civil.

But we still need to understand what is trustworthy about the Feds.

Here's a story that I was reading today at The New American (kind of a Bircher mag).
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman...cle_2589.shtml

In 1997, as the Trentadue case was going before a federal grand jury, officials of the Department of Justice (DOJ) and FBI determined to take serious measures to discredit Jesse Trentadue, who was serving as counsel for the Trentadue family in their civil case against the government. The government enlisted the aid of James Hauser, a prison inmate, to help them indict Jesse Trentadue. Hauser promised the Department of Justice that he would place a "yoke of silence" around Jesse Trentadue's neck by testifying that the family lawyer had paid inmates to perjure themselves. Hauser was polygraphed by the FBI. He failed that polygraph, but was nevertheless presented to the grand jury to give perjured testimony. "It was just incredible the lengths to which they were going to stop us," Jesse Trentadue told The New American. "As we started out on this case, I was kind of naively trusting the FBI and DOJ to get to the bottom of this and help bring those responsible for my brother's murder to justice. But it got weirder and weirder as we went along. I mean, here are these government officials committing very serious crimes, the kind that can send you to prison. Why?" Why? That was the big question that had been haunting him and other family members from the very beginning of this harrowing ordeal. The evidence keeps sending him back to the Oklahoma City bombing for answers to that question. "I never intended to get involved in the OKC bombing issue and really don't want to go there," Jesse Trentadue told The New American. "I don't have a dog in that fight. I'm just a hillbilly lawyer trying to get justice for my brother who was murdered. But it seems I don't have any choice, because that's where the evidence keeps pointing."

Go ahead. Nock your "conspiracy theorist" arrows. I expect it from those who trust the Feds.