Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 02:13 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bishop,
vee isn't an american.

Isn't he saying that he'd like a say in who run's it?(By it I mean the US - maybe he should have been more specific if that's not what he meant)...

bishop · Nov 4, 2004, 02:18 pm

he didn't advocate anything - it was a hypothetical... that much should've been obvious...

PH said it best:

Quote:

Well, it is a good thing that only Americans have a say in who will rule America.

If only the USA was so conciliatory towards other nations it would be a PERFECT WORLD. Unfortunately the badass USA finds a need to manipulate and intervene all over the world, resulting in a smoldering hatred that finds its outbursts in events like embassy bombings and the events of September 11th.

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 02:23 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bishop,
he didn't advocate anything - it was a hypothetical... that much should've been obvious...

PH said it best:

Quote:

Well, it is a good thing that only Americans have a say in who will rule America.

If only the USA was so conciliatory towards other nations it would be a PERFECT WORLD. Unfortunately the badass USA finds a need to manipulate and intervene all over the world, resulting in a smoldering hatred that finds its outbursts in events like embassy bombings and the events of September 11th.

He blames us for 9/11 and you accept that....ROFL....no wonder I got sick of posting here....you people are just so far out in left field, it's not even funny...

**Pooeypants** · Nov 4, 2004, 02:31 pm

Then leave Mr Dieval, no one is forcing you to post here. If you can't accept other people's point of view then ignore them or confront them with due cause and support.

Arrogance does not strengthen your resolve.

bishop · Nov 4, 2004, 02:39 pm

Quote:

you people are just so far out in left field, it's not even funny...

what in the hell are you talking about??? i'm hardly a leftist.. i supported the war in afghanistan, initially supported iraq because i was stupid enough to trust bush, i support LIMITED government, balanced budgets, privatized social security, school vouchers.. get your head out of your ass - i'm not anywhere near left field (assuming that you're implying that we're all dirty leftists).

you don't contribute anything to the debate here imo.. mostly because you can't articulate any of your views without falling back on the same tired partisan one-liners.

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 02:54 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bishop,

what in the hell are you talking about??? i'm hardly a leftist.. i supported the war in afghanistan, initially supported iraq because i was stupid enough to trust bush, i support LIMITED government, balanced budgets, privatized social security, school vouchers.. get your head out of your ass - i'm not anywhere near left field (assuming that you're implying that we're all dirty leftists).

you don't contribute anything to the debate here imo.. mostly because you can't articulate any of your views without falling back on the same tired partisan one-liners.

it's funny how I fall back on the "same tired partisan one-liners" yet the whole theme here is - Blame Bush for everything

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 02:56 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Pooeypants,
Arrogance does not strengthen your resolve.

I think that applies to just about everyone here, not just me.

Nono · Nov 4, 2004, 04:47 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dieval
Are you people insane?? The majority of people in our nation have spoken. Get over it.

As bishop says, that isn't what it's about here. But since you mention it, there seems to massive anecdotal and statistical evidence of vote recording and tabulation fraud in Ohio and Florida, although the electronic boxes themselves allow no recount -- the perfect crime. A district manager in Ohio reported hundreds of machines that just freaked out and had to be re-booted, canceling all the previous votes stored in them. One, at least, reported a vote total of "minus 25 million."

Until you can cough up a reliable democracy, I'd be careful about such pronouncements.

gr8fuldaniel · Nov 4, 2004, 06:42 pm

Our digital experiment failed. America is the laughingstock of the world rather than the champion of Democracy that we profess to be. The Loser Won. What charges have been brought to court to ensure that this NEVER EVER happens again. No, the Republicans are not insisting on recounts in those states that were breached. That would be honorable. You wont get that from the slimeballs that claim to be the Picture of Morality.

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 07:19 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,
The Loser Won.

Actually, the loser lost and the winner won. I guess that explains why you see everything backwards

Gorgo · Nov 4, 2004, 07:27 pm

Kerry conceded before it was over. Why is there such pressure to end the election before the election is over? Not saying that Palast is right, but why the hurry?

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

PatrickHenry · Nov 4, 2004, 08:07 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dieval,
He blames us for 9/11 and you accept that....ROFL....no wonder I got sick of posting here....you people are just so far out in left field, it's not even funny...

Talking about my position, Dieval. I wasn't blaming the US for 9/11(although I have taken that tack in other, more conspiracy oriented threads). Just saying that it came from a source that can be understood in a more nuanced fashion than our President has articulated.

That source is hatred for the US. What caused such murderous hatred? It's not freedom. Even Osama made that point very nicely, pointing out that AlQaeda doesn't target Sweden, a nation as free as America(possibly freer

) So if terrorists aren't after America for its freedom, why do they plan such horrid attacks?

My views aren't leftist except in some special sense of that term. Is it leftist to observe that the US hasn't always been correct in its foreign policy? My other views may even be considered more conservative(or rightist) than your own, if you completely support President Bush. For instance I disagree with favoring foreign nations over our own citizens. Israel is not my country. I do not support the Israeli agenda wholesale. I favor limiting foreign immigration, and especially undocumented immigration. The Bush Administration has limited its enforcement of the invasion from Mexico. Why is it leftist to say that the US should not favor Communist China in trade relations?

True that I think foreign wars are contrary to the national interest. Many leftists also hold this view. But my position is that these wars are not defensive, but show the hubris of the Imperial Establishment in Washington, DC. They are globalists, not patriots. They have an agenda for world dominion, not a real concern for the workers and families of the US. Their "moral" stance is just a smokescreen for a service to the money power that really motivates them. In my own personal views, I have no doubt that my social conservatism exceeds even your own. I just don't believe that morality can be legislated. Should there be a law against drunkenness, lying, adultery? I am in favor of less government regulation of our lives, not more. What is "left" about that?

All of which is simply a defense of my CENTRIST observation that the US could do a better job of being an encourager of democracy in foreign nations. Instead, it has often been an overthrower of democratically elected governments and a supporter of tyranny. I would like to see this change. A change not likely under President Bush.

gr8fuldaniel · Nov 4, 2004, 08:23 pm

Well Put.

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 08:33 pm

You people are far to worried about titles....left, right, etc....

PatrickHenry · Nov 4, 2004, 08:44 pm

Yeah, I know, Dieval. I can't figure what all that means either. I have asked the same question in numerous threads and never received a satisfactory answer. What is left/right, liberal/conservative?

Ah, well, probably doesn't matter...But surely you can see that terror isn't simply an assault on freedom. That there is some level of reason behind the attacks, however flawed and unjustified? Do you think the US has a chance to defeat "Terror" on the battlefield, or should there be some research and development on the nature of the threat and an attempt to use less costly means to defuse the hatred? If your opponent hates you for a reason, perhaps there is a way to reason away the hatred and replace it with cooperation and mutual advantage...

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 08:48 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PatrickHenry,
Yeah, I know, Dieval. I can't figure what all that means either. I have asked the same question in numerous threads and never received a satisfactory answer. What is left/right, liberal/conservative?

Ah, well, probably doesn't matter...But surely you can see that terror isn't simply an assault on freedom. That there is some level of reason behind the attacks, however flawed and unjustified? Do you think the US has a chance to defeat "Terror" on the battlefield, or should there be some research and development on the nature of the threat and an attempt to use less costly means to defuse the hatred? If your opponent hates you for a reason, perhaps there is a way to reason away the hatred and replace it with cooperation and mutual advantage...

You can analyze and work to prevent it in the future, but you have to fight the here and now on the battlefield - preferably abroad and not in our country.

PatrickHenry · Nov 4, 2004, 08:50 pm

And that battlefield is located precisely where?

Dieval · Nov 4, 2004, 08:54 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PatrickHenry,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PatrickHenry,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And that battlefield is located precisely where?[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-Dieval
preferably abroad and not in our country. [/quote]

**Pooeypants** · Nov 5, 2004, 11:03 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dieval,
preferably abroad and not in our country.

That's your version of a precise location?

Technosoul · Nov 5, 2004, 12:29 pm

Well, the international vote that was posted in the first message should say something about most of the Ameircans, we are out of step with the rest of the world. And it is a sign that Bush and the Republicans will not get very far dealing with forien policy issues that would involve the rest of the world.

This means we cannot have any kind of international version of democracy in effect, global concepts of freedom is lost if the rest of the world has no voting power in places like the U.N.

That amounts to an attempt by the Bush thinkers to create a kind of one-world dictatorship and what Bush Sr. called the new world order, totally directed and controlled by the White House here in the USA.

Plus we see cult philosophy at work because Republicans are being isolated from world opinion and are told that those outside of the cult are the evils to be avoided. In that isolated state they formulate absolute faith in the cult leader and will not listen to outside influences that attempt to rescue them.

Nov 4, 2004, 02:31 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	Then leave Mr Dieval, no one is forcing you to post here. If you can't accept other people's point of view then ignore them or confront them with due cause and support. Arrogance does not strengthen your resolve. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Nov 4, 2004, 06:42 pm	#29 (permalink) (top)
gr8fuldaniel Fire the Liars Location: California Posts: 7,090	Our digital experiment failed. America is the laughingstock of the world rather than the champion of Democracy that we profess to be. The Loser Won. What charges have been brought to court to ensure that this NEVER EVER happens again. No, the Republicans are not insisting on recounts in those states that were breached. That would be honorable. You wont get that from the slimeballs that claim to be the Picture of Morality. ~~ Helpful Linx * Huff Post * WRH * RAW STORY ~~

Nov 4, 2004, 08:23 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
gr8fuldaniel Fire the Liars Location: California Posts: 7,090	Well Put. ~~ Helpful Linx * Huff Post * WRH * RAW STORY ~~

Nov 4, 2004, 08:33 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
Dieval Right of Center Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 3,009	You people are far to worried about titles....left, right, etc.... "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." -- Winston Churchill

Nov 4, 2004, 08:44 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,455	Yeah, I know, Dieval. I can't figure what all that means either. I have asked the same question in numerous threads and never received a satisfactory answer. What is left/right, liberal/conservative? Ah, well, probably doesn't matter...But surely you can see that terror isn't simply an assault on freedom. That there is some level of reason behind the attacks, however flawed and unjustified? Do you think the US has a chance to defeat "Terror" on the battlefield, or should there be some research and development on the nature of the threat and an attempt to use less costly means to defuse the hatred? If your opponent hates you for a reason, perhaps there is a way to reason away the hatred and replace it with cooperation and mutual advantage... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Nov 4, 2004, 07:27 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Kerry conceded before it was over. Why is there such pressure to end the election before the election is over? Not saying that Palast is right, but why the hurry? http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

Nov 4, 2004, 08:50 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,455	And that battlefield is located precisely where? "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Nov 5, 2004, 12:29 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,936	Well, the international vote that was posted in the first message should say something about most of the Ameircans, we are out of step with the rest of the world. And it is a sign that Bush and the Republicans will not get very far dealing with forien policy issues that would involve the rest of the world. This means we cannot have any kind of international version of democracy in effect, global concepts of freedom is lost if the rest of the world has no voting power in places like the U.N. That amounts to an attempt by the Bush thinkers to create a kind of one-world dictatorship and what Bush Sr. called the new world order, totally directed and controlled by the White House here in the USA. Plus we see cult philosophy at work because Republicans are being isolated from world opinion and are told that those outside of the cult are the evils to be avoided. In that isolated state they formulate absolute faith in the cult leader and will not listen to outside influences that attempt to rescue them.