Which Party Do You Trust More?

[Solfleur]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (jhfenton,)
Bush is a big-government, neo-conservative imperialist. (I think the last two terms are somewhat redundant.) Every one of the current Democratic Presidential candidates would be worse.

Sadly, I will not be old enough to run for president until next year. :)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Interesting comment...now back it up, if you can. What substance is there to your argument other than the usual Rushism du jour about "libruls" being "unmerikkan"? What is worse than lying to this nation and the world about the reasons for going to war? What&#39;s worse than that pathetic SOTU address we just suffered through that was little more than a pander-fest to Bush&#39;s coffer fillers? What&#39;s worse than the 3 million jobs lost to this administration&#39;s corporate welfare practices? What&#39;s worse than 500+ young American lives lost, and thousands more changed forever, and our constitution being used as toilet paper for Karl Rove&#39;s backside? What&#39;s worse than the sympathy and compassion of the world twisted and deformed into rightful revulsion by an illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of a defenseless sovereign nation under false pretexts? What&#39;s worse than Dick Cheney&#39;s Halliburton making billions of dollars in no-bid contracts even as the Pentagon is actively investigating them for ripping off the Army in Iraq? What&#39;s worse than having no exit strategy for a war YOUR president prematurely hopped around on an aircraft carrier calling a done deed? I could go on for pages and pages here, but I think I&#39;ve given you more than enough to answer for the moment. I would like to hear how SURPLUS is worse than DEFICIT and a FLOURISHING economy is worse than a FLOUNDERING one...how employment is worse than unemployment and why the respect and admiration and trust of the world is worse than the animosity and mistrust of the world and a war on "terra" that has equated to nothing more than a recruiting tool for anti-American extremists. DO TELL&#33;

[The Fyrdman]

Well greater unemployment drives down wages, so Bush&#39;s friends might be appreciating the job cuts.

[Ned]

Solfleur said,
"What&#39;s worse than 500+ young American lives lost, and thousands more changed forever....."

-Ya, millions of the people of Iraq will now have to live with the unbearable burdens of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY.....It&#39;s really quite sad.
......And Solfleur feels their pain..

[jhfenton]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)
Interesting comment...now back it up, if you can. What substance is there to your argument other than the usual Rushism du jour about "libruls" being "unmerikkan"? What is worse than lying to this nation and the world about the reasons for going to war? What&#39;s worse than that pathetic SOTU address we just suffered through that was little more than a pander-fest to Bush&#39;s coffer fillers? What&#39;s worse than the 3 million jobs lost to this administration&#39;s corporate welfare practices? What&#39;s worse than 500+ young American lives lost, and thousands more changed forever, and our constitution being used as toilet paper for Karl Rove&#39;s backside? What&#39;s worse than the sympathy and compassion of the world twisted and deformed into rightful revulsion by an illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of a defenseless sovereign nation under false pretexts? What&#39;s worse than Dick Cheney&#39;s Halliburton making billions of dollars in no-bid contracts even as the Pentagon is actively investigating them for ripping off the Army in Iraq? What&#39;s worse than having no exit strategy for a war YOUR president prematurely hopped around on an aircraft carrier calling a done deed? I could go on for pages and pages here, but I think I&#39;ve given you more than enough to answer for the moment. I would like to hear how SURPLUS is worse than DEFICIT and a FLOURISHING economy is worse than a FLOUNDERING one...how employment is worse than unemployment and why the respect and admiration and trust of the world is worse than the animosity and mistrust of the world and a war on "terra" that has equated to nothing more than a recruiting tool for anti-American extremists. DO TELL&#33;<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Wow, that&#39;s quite some rhetoric. You do understand that I am not neo-conservative. I am a libertarian. I&#39;m not delighted with having to choose between Republican neo-conservatives and Democratic socialists.

As to your "facts," I&#39;ll take a shot:

1. Jobs were lost as a result of an economic bubble bursting before Bush ever took office. The Democrats lack credibility trying to lay that on Bush&#39;s doorstep. So do you.

2. If you think the combination of a Democratic Congress and a Democratic White House would result in fiscal restraint, you are severely deluded. In the 20th Century, only a divided government has shown any measure of restraint.

3. Bush&#39;s tax cuts were a good first step. My only complaints are that they didn&#39;t go farther, and they were not accompanied by comensurate spending cuts.

4. The Bush administration has no monopoly on ignoring the constitution. Both parties are selective in its application. What about Clinton&#39;s 1994 scary-looking semi-automatic rifle and full capacity magazine ban? What about Clinton&#39;s BATF crusade that resulted in shutting down 2/3 of the nation&#39;s law-abiding gun dealers by raising fees and imposing new, abitrary requirements? (For what it&#39;s worth, I&#39;m counting the days (233) until the rifle ban expires and I can put a collapsible stock, a flash supressor, and a bayonet lug on my AR-15.) Both parties are equally culpable in the Bipartisan Incumbent Protection and Free Speech Supression Act (also known as the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act). Both parties were guilty of voting for the PATRIOT Act. I would expect nothing better from a Democratic administration. Also consider Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc.

5. I&#39;ve lost no sleep over a murderous despot being removed from power in accordance with 12 year old U.N. Security Council resolutions agreed to by the murderous despot himself. The Democrats are only screaming "No War for Oil" because Bush led the charge. Democrats have led the nation into military conflicts just as readily as the Republicans.

I could go on, but we&#39;re clearly not on the same page. I believe that the Constitution means what it says. I believe that the federal government is one of enumerated powers and that most current federal programs are extra-constitutional.

I support eliminating all federal involvement and meddling in education, health care, retirement, welfare, etc. That&#39;s what we have 50 state governments for.

So you&#39;ll pardon me if I believe the Republicans are marginally less dangerous. They at least have Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) and a few other brave souls.

[Solfleur]

[QUOTE=jhfenton,]

1. Jobs were lost as a result of an economic bubble bursting before Bush ever took office. The Democrats lack credibility trying to lay that on Bush&#39;s doorstep. So do you.

2. If you think the combination of a Democratic Congress and a Democratic White House would result in fiscal restraint, you are severely deluded. In the 20th Century, only a divided government has shown any measure of restraint.

3. Bush&#39;s tax cuts were a good first step. My only complaints are that they didn&#39;t go farther, and they were not accompanied by comensurate spending cuts.

4. The Bush administration has no monopoly on ignoring the constitution. Both parties are selective in its application. What about Clinton&#39;s 1994 scary-looking semi-automatic rifle and full capacity magazine ban? What about Clinton&#39;s BATF crusade that resulted in shutting down 2/3 of the nation&#39;s law-abiding gun dealers by raising fees and imposing new, abitrary requirements? (For what it&#39;s worth, I&#39;m counting the days (233) until the rifle ban expires and I can put a collapsible stock, a flash supressor, and a bayonet lug on my AR-15.) Both parties are equally culpable in the Bipartisan Incumbent Protection and Free Speech Supression Act (also known as the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act). Both parties were guilty of voting for the PATRIOT Act. I would expect nothing better from a Democratic administration. Also consider Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc.

5. I&#39;ve lost no sleep over a murderous despot being removed from power in accordance with 12 year old U.N. Security Council resolutions agreed to by the murderous despot himself. The Democrats are only screaming "No War for Oil" because Bush led the charge. Democrats have led the nation into military conflicts just as readily as the Republicans.

I could go on, but we&#39;re clearly not on the same page. I believe that the Constitution means what it says. I believe that the federal government is one of enumerated powers and that most current federal programs are extra-constitutional.

I support eliminating all federal involvement and meddling in education, health care, retirement, welfare, etc. That&#39;s what we have 50 state governments for.

So you&#39;ll pardon me if I believe the Republicans are marginally less dangerous. They at least have Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) and a few other brave souls.

LOL...Libertarian indeed. Could anything be more self-serving?

1. Jobs were lost in large part due to immediate deregulation by the Bush administration (which was a MUCH higher priority than keeping in place the protections of the Clinton administration against terrorist attacks on the US) which allowed offshore tax sheltered banking and shipping of millions of manufacturing and tech jobs overseas.

2. The combination of a democratic White House and democratic Congress would be better than the corrupt regime we have in power now. I&#39;d far rather see spending go to things like education (no child left behind...some idea...too bad he didn&#39;t FUND it) and health care than to give-aways to the already obscenely wealthy.

3. The tax cuts for anyone not in the top 10% of the ultra-wealthy in this country is a MYTH, more than devoured by increases in insurance cost increases and other living expenses for average Americans. That is not a "fact" it&#39;s a FACT.

4. Last time I checked, Bambi wasn&#39;t wearing Kevlar. Most of the dem candidates are gun owners and hunters too, as is the very liberal Michael Moore. The "liberals are anti-gun" lie is getting really, really worn out, and even the most obtuse are beginning to see through that charade.

5. I don&#39;t answer straw-man arguments.

[tusaki]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)

4. Last time I checked, Bambi wasn&#39;t wearing Kevlar. Most of the dem candidates are gun owners and hunters too, as is the very liberal Michael Moore. The "liberals are anti-gun" lie is getting really, really worn out, and even the most obtuse are beginning to see through that charade.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Not that it wouldn&#39;t be a good idea to get rid of all the guns. I really don&#39;t know why Americans are so fond/proud of their gunownership.

[PeterAngelo]

TOGA PARTY - ONLY - WITH DRUGS AND ALCOHOL - PLEASE

[jhfenton]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)
LOL...Libertarian indeed. Could anything be more self-serving?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I don&#39;t see anything self-serving about believing in personal responsibility and self-determination. How exactly is libertarianism "self-serving?" I&#39;m hardly wealthy. I paid my wife through school with a combination of scholarships and work-study. My parents couldn&#39;t afford to contribute more than a few hundred dollars a year. My wife and I both work. Her mother lives with us to watch our son. We have a mortgage on a modest house, two car payments -- on a 2002 VW Passat (4-cyl base model) and a 1996 Dodge Grand Caravan we bought used last year when my wife totalled our 1994 Geo Prizm -- and student loan payments. Between basic expenses and self-imposed retirement savings, we have little disposable income. LIke I said, we&#39;re hardly wealthy.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)
1. Jobs were lost in large part due to immediate deregulation by the Bush administration (which was a MUCH higher priority than keeping in place the protections of the Clinton administration against terrorist attacks on the US) which allowed offshore tax sheltered banking and shipping of millions of manufacturing and tech jobs overseas.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I can&#39;t believe that anyone buys this stuff. Jobs were lost as part of the boom-bust business cycle that started to go bust in 2000 -- before the presidential election. Could you please point to the exact "deregulation" of which you complain? Legislation? Executive Order? At least a news reference so I know what the heck you&#39;re talking about?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)
2. The combination of a democratic White House and democratic Congress would be better than the corrupt regime we have in power now. I&#39;d far rather see spending go to things like education (no child left behind...some idea...too bad he didn&#39;t FUND it) and health care than to give-aways to the already obscenely wealthy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The No Child Left Behind Act is another unconstitutional federal power grab. Decisions on education should be made on the state and local level. The only way I see to improve public education is to break the effective government monopoly on education. I support vouchers leading to privatization.

I won&#39;t lose any sleep over a Democratic president as long as we keep strong Republican majorities in Congress. There is something to be said for the fiscal restraint that results from divided government.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)
3. The tax cuts for anyone not in the top 10% of the ultra-wealthy in this country is a MYTH, more than devoured by increases in insurance cost increases and other living expenses for average Americans. That is not a "fact" it&#39;s a FACT.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Hmm, I&#39;m a tax attorney, so I can tell you absolutely that every American who pays any income taxes got an income tax cut. There were top to bottom rate cuts, and the limits on the lowest-rate (10%) bracket were raised to increase the amount of income taxable at 10% instead of higher rates.

We were in the 28% tax bracket. Now it&#39;s a 25% tax bracket, with more income below that taxed at 10% and 15%. We also got an increased child tax credit. We also benefit slightly from having dividends taxed at 15% instead of as ordinary income.

And again, we are not part of the ultra-wealthy.

As for increases in living expenses, I don&#39;t know what you&#39;re talking about. Inflation hasn&#39;t been a factor. Insurance? We pay for home, auto, and life insurance, and none have increased except for marginally. Health insurance increases have been substantial, but have merely continued the trend of the last 20 years. The only way to get those in check is to enact tort reform at the state level, get the federal government out of the health-care business, and to provide improved tax incentives for health insurance. The Health Savings Account provisions in the Medicare Bill were a small start.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)
4. Last time I checked, Bambi wasn&#39;t wearing Kevlar. Most of the dem candidates are gun owners and hunters too, as is the very liberal Michael Moore. The "liberals are anti-gun" lie is getting really, really worn out, and even the most obtuse are beginning to see through that charade.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Michael Moore and every national Democratic presidential candidate is anti-gun. I&#39;m not a hunter, so I don&#39;t care about Bambi. I am, however, a competitive handgun shooter in a variety of disciplines. And I am counting the days until Sept. 14, 2004 when I can buy new full capacity magazines and put a collapsible stock, flash supressor, and bayonet lug on my military-style semi-automatic rifles. A Democratic-controlled Congress would ban those in a heart-beat.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Solfleur,)
5. I don&#39;t answer straw-man arguments.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I understand. You can&#39;t face the truth that the Democrats are the "Party of Peace" as a matter of perceived political expediency, not as a matter of principle.

[PeterAngelo]

Tax man - jhfenton:.

You are a breath of fresh air. A rational, educated, critical thinker.

I believe that a national sales tax is the only fair and equitable way to tax.

The rich hate it because they would not have tax loopholes to cheat with.

The underground economy - cash economy - or working poor don&#39;t file anyway so they don&#39;t want it.

The workers who have taxes taken from their paychecks are the only ones actually paying income and Social Security taxes.

On top of that, they pay sales taxes, fees, usurous interest on phony credit cards, etc.

The quest for "increased worker productivity" has both parents working two jobs - increased worker productivity means that one worker does the work of two for the pay of one.

Not good for the "worker" (wage slave).

Our system has one problem - corruption. Both parties are now one crime gang using the divide and conquer techniques that work with "lesser" minds.

The media doesn&#39;t even discuss the fourth branch of government, the Administrative Agencies that truly rule our lives.

It was set up to take responsibility from Congress. Congress gives the Administrative Agencies of the Executive Branch their authority by law. Once in place they can decide anything they want and make any rule. We have to follow them and we hate them. Most people don&#39;t associate their monstrous intrusion into our lives as the Congressional scam it really is.

How can an electorate "choose" a candidate of either party when they don&#39;t understand how the system works, or law, or government, or international law, or history, or much of anything?

Our problem is corruption and deliberate policies that are making a few people super rich - and everyone else wage slaves.

That is the policy - and it is working.

Our military industrial complex is in place to make sure it stays in place even when the wage slaves figure out how they got roped into the pen for slaughter.

You know that anyone who pays rent every month should be able to own the damn cube they are paying for.

I have no mortgage, no car payment, no credit card interest.

I live in a condo on the beach that I paid &#036;71,000.00 for five years ago.

It is now worth &#036;140,000.00

I have "made" money just sitting on the couch and pay only &#036;170.00 per month maintenance fee per/mo (includes cable and water).

My total overhead - including taxes, insurance, etc. - is &#036;600.00 per/mo.

If I had to pay rent (some owners rent and get &#036;1000.00 per/mo for a place like mine), car payments, and all that nonesense, I couldn&#39;t afford to live in this paradise.

The workers are being milked like a cow tied to a stall.

You may not have figured out how you are being played yet.

I hope this helps.

I&#39;m going out to the jacuzzi now - I&#39;ll check in later.

I enjoyed reading your well written post - good man.

[damnrad]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
Where is the neither?

Well I voted democrat just because, even though I know they are both the same, Democrats at least
feel guilty about it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Good point. While I trust the GOP not at all, I certainly don&#39;t have all that must trust in the Democratic Party, certainly not while the DLC is prominent in it. But even without the DLC, Lyndon Johnson gave us a lesson in why we shouldn&#39;t put our trust in the party, even if we vote for it, work for some of its candidates, use it for political purposes.

[damnrad]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dotComa,)
I voted republican. I know when Republicans lie. Democrats are harder to figure out these days.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Well, it is true that it&#39;s easier to tell when Republicans lie -- every time they open their mouths. By the same token, it is harder to figure out when Democrats lie, because they sometimes tell the truth.

[damnrad]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Scribbler1,)
Sean, I had to nullify my vote and just see the results. I&#39;m not surprised Democrats lead Republicans here, but the problem is you only gave us 2 choices. I grudgingly go Libertarian Party myself, but there are about 54 registered parties in this country. You could have at least included the Libertarian and Green parties. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I won&#39;t have anything to do with the Libertarian Party, but I echo the call for more choices. I&#39;ll work for a Democrat, rather than a Green, because I want to dump Dubya (although should the Democrats nominate Holy Joe, Bush-lite Lieberman, I just might vote Green). But I was a long-time Peace and Freedom registrant and only reluctantly work through the Democratic Party. In fact, if the question remained which party I trusted more, I might list Green; but I&#39;d still work through and often vote for the Democratic Party.