Iraq War

[PeterAngelo]

It is always a battle of banks.

The Vatican Bank has been the main enemy of the Middle East since they toppled the Ottoman Empire with loans, and weakened them so an attack from the East took them out.

That was only a hundred years ago.

The Saudi family has been backed by the Muslim clerics since 1916. It is the U. S. bases and, our policies in the area, that has brought it to a head.

The British promised the Jews a homeland in Israel - and Arab independence, in 1916. The promises have never been completed. The deliberate division and conflict has served the war machines well.

We have to co-exist on a fair basis for there to be peace.

We have to stop speaking with "forked tongue" and treating the whole world like we treated the American Indians.

The only thing missing are blankets with smallpox - and I wouldn't be suprised if we do that too.

[damnrad]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (white rice,)
White House Officials Say Privately the Sept. 11 Attacks Changed Everything. A little easier to swallow than oil...

I agreed to the war because I believed in the WMD threats and the 12 past UN resolutions agreeing to the possibility that Saddam did have them. The humanitarian issue appealied to my interventionist leanings long before the bait-and-switch occured. UN sanctions were demonized as inhumanitarian, crumbling due Arab, Russian and French lobbying, and circumvented by neighboring nations. Yet sanctions was the key peaceful means for nuclear containment which was part of the terms for Saddam's surrender. The realistic possibility of us using Iraqi oil or using it as leverage to bust up OPEC if they switch to the Euro for pricing oil was unlikely for this or a possible re-elected term. Saddam's oil wells were undermaintained around 25% capacity and the majority were destroyed by the Coalition in the first Gulf War. It will take several years to rebuild them.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

The WMD issue was a White House lie -- I don't blame the 'intelligence community' for that one but really think that Dubya lied and the CIA was then asked to take the bullet for him. Yes, we did know that Saddam once had WMDs, because we allowed U.S. companies to sell them to him when he was buddy-buddy with Rummy in the 1980s. There was evidence that he had largely destroyed what he had left in the mid 1990s, but even I was surprised at the total lack of weapons. But I never believed that he had enough, had them deployed, and had troops trained to use them -- that he constituted a threat to the U.S. So, the major justification for the invasion was a lie in the first place.

But what were the motivations for the invasion? I think oil was part of it, in that Iraq sits on the second-largest known pool of it, even if it cannot be pumped efficiently for a while. But I really think the Administration thought they could pump more faster than it has proved possible. Still, that is not the only reason. Was it a Bush family vendetta? Possible, but I think that a minor motivation, enough to make Dubya want to do something but not enough to move his Administration to lie and put the U.S. military into gear. For more-complete motives, I suggest a glance at the Project for a New American Century: http://www.newamericancentury.org/. There are the arguments for an American empire based on forcefully maintaining the U.S. position as primary military power, on conquering bases in the Middle East and Southern Asia (starting with Iraq), and subsequent moves (a la the saber rattling about Syria and Iran). And there are key players in Dubya's administration: Cheney, Perle, Rumsfield, and others.

Could the invasion have been to bring democracy to Iraq? LOL! We're talking about many of the same players (a la Rumsfeld) who propped up Saddam in the 1980s, let him fight a proxy war against Iran (while for a while also playing the other side), supplied WMDs and let them be used against Iran, and so forth. The only concern that crew has had about democracy was preventing it in Florida -- and rejecting Iraqi calls for it. But it will be interesting if democracy does break out in Iraq. Imagine, Iraq a democracy but the US not.

[PeterAngelo]

You can ignore the banking if you want to, but that is the key.

The 1% Prime Rate has been used as an artificial measure to prop up the stock market and keep this sinking ship afloat (or appear to be afloat).

The Euro started at $.96 and is up to $1.26 or so. Not to mention that our stock frauds, Enrons, and the rest of our corrupted system has the world considering us as reliable as a Mexican Peso - and our markets just as secure.

The Federal Reserve slightly hinted today that the rate may rise later this year.

The DOW plumeted.

The smart money knows the scam is running and will bail out so fast it really will be like a balloon burst.

Our ability to use our military-industrial complex to do old time killing is severely limited because of media.

We cannot slaughter at the rate of WWI, WWII, or even Vietnam.

We are in a bind because our system is so corrupt and flawed.

We depend on an ancient formula of war and revolution in a supposed modern age.

Our super-rich, old money bankers will not give up the game.

As usual, humans take it to the limit.

The French, Germans and the rest of Europe gains by our folly. All they have to do is sit back and wait for dummy Bush to take us out himself.

That is why Germany and France are so adamant about staying out.

Dummy has us painted into a corner at the worst possible time.

Our banking system is bankrupt and the former ways of solving the "problem" with wars is bankrupt too.

We have so many phony corporation making nothing but bloated stock deals it has to blow. There are no real assets in DOT COM companies, and products aren't sold when consumers have no money and no credit.

Our manufacturing jobs are gone so we have to import goods we used to make. We are in trouble.

So many foreign countries own our domestic corporations we will be evicted - not invaded.

I just found out a Danish company owns one of our leading grocery chains that always advertised their local origins. So much for community.

The Danish Corporation just announced closing a bunch of them. More Americans out of work. More people doing two jobs for one pay in terror of being downsized.

The great Danes were never known for kindness in the workplace. Do you think they care about Tampa residents?

Corruption is no joke. The bad laws purchased by corporation for the last thirty years have ruined this country. Our media has become a propaganda machine telling us everything is allright - go shopping. Terrorists are around every corner - go shopping.

It is banking more than oil. The oil is only good if we have an industrial machine that demands it. Don't forget. Cars not only burn gas, plastics are made from petroleum too. So are most of the chemicals, medicines, and almost everything else we call modern. If we don't use the stuff our economy is stalled and the deficit will kill us. The holders of the notes will want cash. "They" include the Japanese and lots of other countries, the Rockefellers and all the old guard money, and our social security funds, savings bonds, etc. The whole thing is a house of cards that requires constant inflation (inflation has been artificially eliminated), growth ( we have had no real growth for a long time), and a belief in the future ( reduced to terror).

Supply and demand has been replaced with an artificial economy based on maximum "consumerism". It is folly to think that we can continue to buy "things" we cannot afford forever, pay outrageous interest until we are strangled, and then go bankrupt.

Our system is not legitinmate. Mortgages are a system of indenture. Anyone who pays rent should be able to own the land they pay for - period. Mortgages that end up costing 300% interest are a rip off. Even if you pay it off after thirty years you cannot get your money back - no matter how much the value rises. Between maintenence, interest, and inflation you are lucky to get even.

I paid cash for my condo and pay only $160.00 a month for maintenance. The guy next door rents from the owner and pays $1000.00 per/month.

A mortgage would cost just as much with interest - wasted money. It is identical to a peasant "renting" land from the Lord of the Manor. It is an unending wheel - the "company store" charges a little bit more than you make -so you work forever like a slave.

That is what happens to most American workers while the money boys sit and get fat.

It is unfair on it's face, but people accept it as the status quo. STUPID.
I treat mortgage people like the loan sharks they are. I tell them they should give anyone a mortgage. What do they have to lose? If you pay for years and then get into trouble they keep all the interest you have paid and get to sell the house over again to another sucker.

They laugh - and hate people like me. I get ads all the time from roaches trying to steal my condo. I call them just to ruin their day.

I read the posts on these forums and all I can think of is the similarity to the phrase, "arranging the chairs on the Titanic." America is sinking because of corruption. Our "leaders" are owned by multi-national corporate oligarchies with no allegiance to anything but cash and power.

We have no choice but to revolt - sooner or later - because they will not let go voluntarily.

It will happen when Americans get hip to what I have just written - it is happening.

If you think there was violence in the Balkans in the 90's - imagine pissed off American rednecks (most are) with guns.

The civilians in those countries are not armed like we are. The warlords of Somalia aren't armed as well as my brother-in-law from Louisiana. He has been waiting for a chance to overthrow Washington since Vietnam.

Americans - real Americans - will cure this with guns - sooner or later.

The Washington pigs will turn on the Corporations faster than a two dollar whore. Then we will get "reforms".

I hope I live to join the fight. I'm sixty, but in better physical condition than when I was thirty. I believe in combat ready forever.

Survive. Don't worry about oil, Euros, Arabs, Jews, or Washington criminals.

Build your own family empire and screw the world - before it screws you.

Works for me!!!!

[damnrad]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (littlered,)
He termed very intelligently as a war on terrorism in order to confuse everyone. Because you cannot have a war on terrorism, its an idea and the only way to confront an idea is with ideas. But if your against a war on terrorism they can cry your 'un-american, un-patriotic, traiterous' and the masses can't stand someone who is one of those. Its a marvelous stroke of propaganda work. And now because they can claim anything is part of the war on terror, without fear of being opposed, they can pass whatever law however abomnible. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Oh, but he is conducting a war, and it is a war on Terra. Following the PNAC, he invaded Iraq, and wants to go after Iran and Syria next; but the end goal is the domination of all of Terra. But a war on Terra is as unwinnable as a war on terror. Dubya used the Clinton military to fight and win two military conflicts; but neither his policies nor that military are capable of extracting him from being bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq. But he would still like to go after Iran and Syria. But now he finds that he has overextended his military and driven the US even further into budget deficit. So, Dubya will soon find that his ability to wage a war on Terra has ended -- and the rest of Terra will suffer for it.

[G. Adams]

A war on Terra? Going latin today? Are we talking about a war on the ground itself? Please elaborate.

[PeterAngelo]

The USA is bankrupt. We have nothing but a war machine and it won't work anymore. $7,000,000,000,000 in debt is not rational, or payable with our current economy.

The Euro is replacing the dollar as the currency of choice because it has integrity. We do not.

The Federal Reserve (Rockefeller), the New York Stock Exchange, and the holders of the "debt" are panic stricken.

This war is about money - oil is just a side issue - important and vital - but a side issue.

Dubya is the front man for a broken gang. They will bring a collapse like 1929 and a lot of trouble.

We can only hope that the more rational developed nations will step in and keep from starting a real slaughter.

Americans are in for a bad time either way. It is an inexorable process that has to take time to play out. It will be painful.

Other times in history were even more insane because information flow was controllable. It is no longer. That is the difference we have to cling to while we ride out the age of the corporate oligarchies, and the idiot prince.

"The War on terror", is the terror they feel in their guts as they lose their power and know they will have to pay for their crimes.

[Impenitent]

yes, the socialist terrorists will pay for their crimes...

[PeterAngelo]

Everyone pays for their crimes - sooner or later.

[Zeebadee]

So, Peter, how does one that has faithfully worked up to the point of being "downsized", that has a life savings that now has to last as long as he does, with all the bills to pay, health insurance to pay, exactly how does one protect himself now? Your vision of America is frightening, but at the same time seems to be a reasonable analysis of the state of the union. Are we just sitting in deckchairs on the Titanic, or is there something we can do?

[Bayou]

A good start will be voting out the current Bush administration and pray the democrats have learned form their past mistakes.

Heh the irony in IMP's statement is that many of the past socialist terrorists were tried, but because the FBI resorted to so many illegal operations to try to catch them, the charges were dropped to avoid punlicising this to the general public.
Also to note that no person in the U.S was ever killed at the hands of socialist terrorists, except for a few socialist terrorists themselves: looks like your wish was fullfilled IMP before you were ever born

[Impenitent]

hardly, the democRATS never learn... and the socialist terrorists of today can be found in the democRAT party

[Paavo]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
democRATS<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Would you stop saying that? It takes away from your credibility, at least in my eyes. Playing with letters like that is something a 15 year old AOL chatter would do to make an impact.

[Impenitent]

no, as long as I see republiKKKan or repuke everywhere, I will continue to post democRATS... it is not misspelled... and if you can't see the arguments for the soundness and validity they poessess, the spelling doesn't matter... the hate bush crowd is only that... they are driven by hate and not reason...

[tusaki]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
no, as long as I see republiKKKan or repuke everywhere, I will continue to post democRATS... it is not misspelled... and if you can't see the arguments for the soundness and validity they poessess, the spelling doesn't matter... the hate bush crowd is only that... they are driven by hate and not reason...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Lowering yourself to their level really makes your arguments come across. I must admit, it has a faint persuasive touch to it.. RATS.. sounds good too...

[PeterAngelo]

Zeebadee:

The real problem is in the courts.

The Bar Association was a trade union that couldn't get lawyers to join until after WWII.

It was used by the courts (it is now actually a part of the court systen which is not even constitutional) to weed out lawyers that sued corporations or government agencies.

Lawyers who do civil rights work are routinely driven nuts by the bar for nonsense, get bad decisions by judges, and are ridiculed by the media (Nadar). Rat lawyers are rewarded by judges who help them win against business entities, or sell "undesireables" (Blacks and poor) down the river in criminal courts that are more criminal than the criminals.

It is the law that is being used to corrupt and control the system.

It is the working knowledge of the law that should be a requirement of every high school graduate - for their own protection. We are charged with being responsible for following the law - but are not educated in the process, or history of it.

It is like trying to play Monopoly with a master of the game, without reading or knowing the rules of the game.

Impossible.

My family has become a family of lawyers simply for self-protection in the future.

In a police state - be a cop.

Otherwise you will be a victim - I promise.

Policies and laws are in place that will drain every drop of money you ever make, after you work two jobs until they hook you up to a machine until the cash register stops.

Sorry - but that is reality and the human condition today.

[Pooeypants]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Paavo,)
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
democRATS<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Would you stop saying that? It takes away from your credibility, at least in my eyes. Playing with letters like that is something a 15 year old AOL chatter would do to make an impact.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
He has to have credibility to begin with inorder to lose any.

[Impenitent]

LMAO... how true

[Freedom2BHeard]

A Nation Damned

We are a nation damned.

There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. We are past being able to pretend otherwise, no matter what comfort might be found in the deception. The United States has invaded and conquered a foreign nation under false pretexts. President Bush and his cronies lied us all into a war.

But that is not why we are damned.The culmination of decades of accumulated overspending by the government has created an aggregate debt for the United States federal and state governments of $14 trillion dollars. That¹s fourteen million million dollars. Or, to put it in a more personal scale, more than $48,000 for every single living human being in the United States, plus the accumulating interest.

The interest on that government debt now exceeds all the personal income tax collected by that government. That means that the government isn¹t keeping up with the interest on the debt, let alone able to pay down the principle. Even before the wars started with lies, the US Government was sinking deeper into debt by one third of a trillion dollars every year.

With Bush¹s war, the debt is increasing at another half trillion every year just at the Federal level. And because the federal Government, struggling with payments on past debts, is sending less money back to the states, the states are sinking deeper into debt as well.

But that is not why we are damned.

The national fiscal crisis is accelerating because of soaring unemployment, and the forced migration of workers from higher paying jobs to lower paying ones. This is occurring for two reasons. The first is that as tax revenues falter, the cash-strapped government raises tax rates. This increases the cost of products and services inside the United States without increasing their quality or desirability. Indeed American companies, struggling to keep prices competitive, are forced to sacrifice quality.

As an inevitable result, American companies have either been driven out of business by foreign competition able to sell superior products at lower prices, or been forced to outsource their own operations to regions with lower tax burdens.

The US Government attempted to conceal this loss of manufacturing with the so-called ³Service Economy², the ludicrous notion that one can prosper a nation by doing each other¹s laundry for a fee. But while the moving of cash back and forth for services created more opportunities for taxation, fewer and fewer products were being made within the United States for sales to foreign countries. All the while, Americans were buying foreign-made products because they were of better quality and lower price than American products. Indeed many products needed for every day life are simply not made in the USA any more. When Ampex invented the VCR, they did not even bother approaching American manufacturers but licensed directly to the Japanese.

When Seymour Cray was building his supercomputers, the chips he needed were only available from Japanese manufacturers.

Money is flowing out of the country at a billion and a half dollars per day.

And as government debt drives taxes higher, the situation can only get worse.

But that is not why we are damned.

Despite the huge government debt, despite the loss of manufacturing over the last 30 years, despite soaring unemployment, despite American women and children sleeping in alleys and eating out of trash cans, the United States government hands out trillions of dollars as gifts to their friends (who used to be their enemies) and to make war on their enemies (who used to be their friends).

But that is not why we are damned.

Maybe the problem is the Congress. Congress is supposed to represent the people, but a body composed of millionaires and lawyers can hardly be expected to understand how to actually make things work. Maybe Congress would better serve the people if it were made up of teachers, doctors, road engineers, factory workers, bakers, people who actually know how to make a nation function, build an infrastructure, and know what it is like to have to live paycheck to paycheck in a nation where the government makes more money off of your work than you do and is always asking for more.

But that is not why we are damned.

We are damned because we know all the above and do nothing. Like the Germans of 1930s Germany we see Der Fuhrer trying to distract the populace from the self-serving choices the government makes by creating a war with lies and deceptions, yet stay silent, less we be accused of being traitors to the national security. We voice our outrage when a rock star bares her breast at a sporting event, because rock stars cannot after all hurt us, raise our taxes, or conscript our children to be crippled or killed in wars.

But we remain silent, or at best speak in hushed tones with a trusted few of our concerns about the government, which does hurt us, which does raise our taxes, and which has and continues to conscript our children to be crippled or killed in wars.

We are damned by our silence. We are damned by our inaction. We are damned by our fear to speak out. We are damned by our weakness. We are damned by being sheep under a government of wolves.

We are damned unless and until you realize that your anger and outrage must be targeted where it is needed, not just where it is harmless. We are damned by our willingness to be angry with those who cannot affect our lives, while remaining too afraid to be angry with those who can.

We are damned because individuals who refuse to obey the law morally offend us, but we remain enablers of a government that refuses to obey the Constitution. We are damned until WE THE PEOPLE remember that we ARE a people, and that this nation is US.

The President is not the nation. The media is not the nation. The selfish desires of a powerful few are not the nation. The Congress is not the nation.

This nation is 288 million teachers, doctors, bricklayers, road layers, bridging engineers, railroad workers, bakers, grocers, and thousands of others who actually make the nation work. But we seem to have forgotten that simple truth, that wisdom conveyed in those first three words to the Preamble to the Constitution, ³We The People².

The Constitution makes it clear that the nation is the people, and the government only a temporary custodian of our national sovereignty that rules by and only by the leave of the people.

We are damned because we have forgotten that the government is the employee of the people, and that like any employee the government is required to obey orders, not to give them.

We are damned because we have forgotten that as the employers of the government, we have the right to decide what our employees can do and more importantly, what they cannot.

We are damned because we have forgotten who is really supposed to be in charge.

[Jackney Sneeb]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Freedom2BHeard,)
A Nation Damned
The Constitution makes it clear that the nation is the people, and the government only a temporary custodian of our national sovereignty that rules by and only by the leave of the people.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

When the constitution says "Congress shall have the power to . . .lay and collect taxes . . . provide for the common Defense and general Welfare [and] . . . supress insurrections," it is clear that the "government" is supreme, and the people merely servants subject to its rule. Since when does your servant dictate his salary, or lock you in a cage if you try to fire him? Since when does your temporary custodian order you overseas to risk your life killing his enemies?

--Jackney Sneeb

[PeterAngelo]

I spent the day at the Federal Court House in Tampa today doing legal research. It occurred to me that the only Americans who are living like Americans used to live are the people who are "in" the government.

As a member of a law firm my treatment and experience at the Courthouse was different than the ordinary citizen. It was much friendlier and relaxed. The clerk was co-operative and friendly.

A "civilian" who asked the clerk for information was told that she was unable by law to give any advice or information.

He retorted that it is not fair that without a lawyer - it is virtually impossible to acess the courts.

He is right.

It is not an accident that the system is exotic and unavailable to the mere mortal. Legal education is non-existant in schools. It is essential to being able to live in a nation of laws.

I feel protected from the poor. It is true. I live in a nice beach condo and am never harassed by the police. They are friendly and cooperative.

In the poorer parts of town they are like Nazi stormtroopers. They keep the "undesireables" from my part of town, and keep them "in the system" and poor.

It is a deliberate cycle of controlled anarchy that feeds a demand for more police - who use drug laws, and social engineering to keep people in a cycle of poverty - with criminal records - that insures a slave labor class.

Now we are bringing in third world peasants with limited - or no - rights - to be a class of indentured servants. The plan is to let them work for three years and then "return". Fat chance.

The average American is now treated (and apparently seen) as third world peasants to be controlled by violence and draconian laws.

The Patriot Act is the act of the government bureaucracies to surround themselves with a "Pretorian Guard."

My family is "in."

Get a legal education - or be rounded up like a "sheep."