U.S.A., Born July 4, 1776...Died Nov 4, 2008

[Angry Citizen]

The Blue states are the economic engine of the United States. With few exceptions, the Red states survive because of federal government largess and subsidies which flows from the Blue states.

I'm interested in the establishment of causation in this instance. Blue states are also known for being mega industrial centers. California, New York, Washington -- all traditionally blue states, and all traditionally big on industry. I'm also curious how you reconcile California's indebtedness and Texas's lack of indebtedness with your assertion. Certainly comparisons can be made regarding Texas's abysmal social service quality, but that is not your assertion.

[Dan74]

Is it possible for libhater to make a valid argument? Every single one of his sources is from a Heritage Foundation site or similar neocon source.

[lsbskins1]

I'm interested in the establishment of causation in this instance. Blue states are also known for being mega industrial centers. California, New York, Washington -- all traditionally blue states, and all traditionally big on industry. I'm also curious how you reconcile California's indebtedness and Texas's lack of indebtedness with your assertion. Certainly comparisons can be made regarding Texas's abysmal social service quality, but that is not your assertion.

This is not a question of the state level "in and out" of tax dollars. That would drive local budgets and account for a state being in the black or in the red. It is a matter of Federal dollars. The blue states pay more in federal tax monies than they receive back in federal dollars. The red states receive more in federal dollars than they pay in. So, when discussing which states are a net plus to the federal coffers and which are a drain, liberal states put in more and conservative states take out more. It does not matter "why", it is true. Causation is not at issue, what is at issue is the claim that the conservative states "support" the liberal states. It is a false claim.

[barts]

I'm interested in the establishment of causation in this instance. Blue states are also known for being mega industrial centers. California, New York, Washington -- all traditionally blue states, and all traditionally big on industry. I'm also curious how you reconcile California's indebtedness and Texas's lack of indebtedness with your assertion. Certainly comparisons can be made regarding Texas's abysmal social service quality, but that is not your assertion.

I'm merely referencing the data, not asserting anything. Most blue states contribute more, according to the data, to federal coffers than they receive. Most red states get more than they contribute. That's the data. Of course, there are some exceptions which are noted in the links.

As for California, Californians are paying federal taxes. Where they are not paying sufficient tax to cover necessary expenditures is at the state level and that's where the indebtedness comes in. It's a state tax, not federal tax, issue. In California it's caused by a dysfunctional legislature where a 2/3 majority, thanks to Proposition 13 in the late 70s, is required to raise taxes.

As for Texas, it has debt of over $80 billion and a $1.13 billion deficit this year. So, I don't know where you got the idea that Texas is not indebted.

[Thanatos]

I can't believe the Republicans still haven't figured out that you can't stay on welfare your whole life. Their ideas about wealth redistribution are fantasy.

[Angry Citizen]

As for Texas, it has debt of over $80 billion and a $1.13 billion deficit this year. So, I don't know where you got the idea that Texas is not indebted.

Well, that is interesting, because that violates the Texas Constitution, which strictly forbids even the existence of debt. It's one of the reasons our social services are so abysmal. We refuse to raise taxes because those who do get booted out. Consequently, our spending must be small.

From the Texas Constitution, article III:

SEC. 49. No debt shall be created by or on behalf of the State, except to supply casual deficiencies of revenue, repel invasion, suppress insurrection, defend the State in war, or pay existing debt and the debt created to supply deficiencies in the revenue, shall never exceed in the aggregate at any one time two hundred thousand dollars.

Most blue states contribute more, according to the data, to federal coffers than they receive. Most red states get more than they contribute.

Okay. Now again, could this be due to simple demographics? Note that most red states are also agriculture states, and agriculture is heavily subsidized by federal currency.

[lsbskins1]

Okay. Now again, could this be due to simple demographics? Note that most red states are also agriculture states, and agriculture is heavily subsidized by federal currency.

Which still means that the claim that the red states subsidize the blue states is false. This is not making the case better for Republicans and conservatives or for Tea Party libertarians. The plain fact is that big business gets the vast majority of these dollars. So, not only is the majority of money going to the red states, the majority of that agricultural money is not going to little, nanny state dependent, individual farmers who refuse to change business practices because the government is giving them a free ride, it is going right into the accounts of huge, family farm killing monsters. United States Top Recipients 2009 || EWG Farm Subsidy Database and United States Subsidy Concentrations for 2009 || EWG Farm Subsidy Database

So, as you can see, at least in this case, the damn liberals are sending their tax dollars to the damn conservatives and the damn conservatives are spending it on themselves and their corporate masters. Go figure. It ain't subsidizing welfare, it is making the rich even richer.

[Libhater]

[QUOTE=lsbskins1;746626]Which still means that the claim that the red states subsidize the blue states is false. This is not making the case better for Republicans and conservatives or for Tea Party libertarians. The plain fact is that big business gets the vast majority of these dollars. So, not only is the majority of money going to the red states, the majority of that agricultural money is not going to little, nanny state dependent, individual farmers who refuse to change business practices because the government is giving them a free ride, it is going right into the accounts of huge, family farm killing monsters. United States Top Recipients 2009 || EWG Farm Subsidy Database and United States Subsidy Concentrations for 2009 || EWG Farm Subsidy Database

So, as you can see, at least in this case, the damn liberals are sending their tax dollars to the damn conservatives and the damn conservatives are spending it on themselves and their corporate masters. Go figure. It ain't subsidizing welfare, it is making the rich even richer.

That right there is the problem with you libs. You're so angered over these corporations that you don't consider that they are the suppliers of the jobs, yet you can't seem to put blame on our burgeoning government for over taxing and over spending our money in the same light. Think of our government as one huge corporation if you will; one that not only subsidizes welfare, but subsidizes practically every aspect of life inside these blue city-state districts nationwide. The major problems with our economy come directly from our blue liberally infested cities and border states where illegal immigration and liberally controled state legislatures rule the day. Take the state of California for instance. That's our biggest blue state. How well are finances of that loony left coast state fairing with say any of our middle America RED states in proportion to their perspective populations?

[barts]

Well, that is interesting, because that violates the Texas Constitution, which strictly forbids even the existence of debt.

Interesting. From Texas state budget,

Texas has a total state debt of $81,128,512,515 when calculated by adding the total of outstanding debt, pension and OPEB UAAL’s, unemployment trust funds and the 2010 budget gap as of July 2010. (Source)

[Angry Citizen]

That is quite curious. I cited my understanding of the Texas legislative system; I can only speculate as to the cause of this debt.

[Dan74]

That right there is the problem with you libs. You're so angered over these corporations that you don't consider that they are the suppliers of the jobs, yet you can't seem to put blame on our burgeoning government for over taxing and over spending our money in the same light. Think of our government as one huge corporation if you will; one that not only subsidizes welfare, but subsidizes practically every aspect of life inside these blue city-state districts nationwide. The major problems with our economy come directly from our blue liberally infested cities and border states where illegal immigration and liberally controled state legislatures rule the day. Take the state of California for instance. That's our biggest blue state. How well are finances of that loony left coast state fairing with say any of our middle America RED states in proportion to their perspective populations?

Corporations are the suppliers of jobs? Are you fucking asleep?

Corporations are the KILLERS of jobs! They employ as many overseas workers as they can so as to AVOID creating jobs for Americans.

Corporations are disgusting, greedy, murderous, unjust, out of control SOCIOPATHS which only exist to make money for their CEOs.

If you think that these big businesses are good for America then you are truly lost.

[lsbskins1]

Corporations are the suppliers of jobs? Are you fucking asleep?

Corporations are the KILLERS of jobs! They employ as many overseas workers as they can so as to AVOID creating jobs for Americans.

Corporations are disgusting, greedy, murderous, unjust, out of control SOCIOPATHS which only exist to make money for their CEOs.

If you think that these big businesses are good for America then you are truly lost.

Just to make my position plain: I don't think of corporations as being a complete evil. I think of unregulated, multinational corporations that abandon all ethical considerations in pursuit of nothing but the end-all, be-all bottom line as the antithesis to the common good. And you can poo-poo the common good all you want (not you Dan, I mean that in general terms), but the plain fact of the matter is that social and economic institutions that do not pursue the common good end up damaging it. That is why humans have developed the concept of regulation and restraint. Too often, giant entities forget the "rational" element of "rational self-interest" and flat out pursue self-interest to the detriment of the greater society. Government EXISTS, in a rational system, to prevent that crap. As Madison said, "If men were angels, no government would be necessary."