Eh, No Jack, it is because production as a whole has become cheaper related to the masses getting more money (reduction of poverty) that allowed for more sales and so on, you know the general function of supply and demand.Quote by: Jack
Currently China can produce the same things as the western world for lower price, ipso facto, they now control almost all of our production because the businesses move to Chinese corporation for production.
You know this.
You should read my post and comment on what it actually says, not what you think it says.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire
Source please.
What I see is someone whose conclusions always include a dim view of those who don't agree with him. Reason and logic are a good place, but I have seen three people argue over the clear results coming from scientific experiments. Get into economics and it gets tougher.....history is one step further removed.
No, I see you as a zealot because your conclusions are always that yours is the only conclusion that can be reached.
I did. What I'm saying is that we have a fundamental disagreement on the nature of reality that can't be addressed with words on this forum. We disagree that behavior is the important condition of 'success' Is success guaranteed? No. But you CAN guarantee failure through personal behavior.
Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Feed a man for half his life- be ready to feed him for the other half! -me
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This is a debate board, Listening. I enjoy testing my wits in a competitive format. It's fun.That's why I've been on these boards since the mid-late '90s.
Why are you here?
I don't disagree... politics is mostly what you feel in your gut. I suspect I'm liberal by nature and likely see a world that suits that nature, but my conservative father trained me well... I read the newspaper every day, along with other sources, and try to make sure I know what I'm talking about before I venture an opinion. Like my dad, I'm an avid lay-student of science although my recent contributions here have mostly been limited to AGW and evolution. I'm also a confident, life-long student of history. Economics? That's less certain ground for me, but I learn as I go. Politics? I tend to be pragmatic. I adhere to the "Benevolent Scoundrel" school... meaning that politicians are universally highly intelligent, highly capable, overly ambitious, ruthless, ego-maniacal, self-important windbags who love the sounds of their own voices, will lie without remorse the second it benefits them, and most of whom genuinely care about their 'people' but love themselves more.
And such is the nature of ALL political leaders, and therefore I find people who complain about them to be naive and unrealistic. There is no perfect politician, and if you believe there is, you will ALWAYS be disappointed.
But it's why I find the unique strength of representative democracy to be that we the people can put those highly intelligent and capable scoundrels to our best use by holding them on course with the reins of our votes and the free press. It's far from perfect, but as Winston Churchill said, "...democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
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Anyway, that's why I'm sitting here with four windows open on my browser... I'm teaching myself as I go. There's an old lawyer's CW... "Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to."
More often than not, if I make a statement of fact that I'm not reasonably sure of, I'll make a cursory fact-check first, and I've deleted more than a few statements I found out were wrong. If I source a fact, I try to make it a legitimate, authoritative and, if possible. non-partisan source.
I'm more like you than you think, Listening. I get just as tired of the black & white excesses from the left as you apparently do from the right. But I like to win.
What can I say???
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I don't suffer from insanity... I thoroughly enjoy it
I too have many windows open in my browser. However, most of them are porn!
Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Feed a man for half his life- be ready to feed him for the other half! -me
[Chuck Berry's-- "Everything you want, we got right here in the USA."QUOTE=Sonart;746414].
By what standard? Self delusion?
While reading through your links, I could not help but recall King Juan Carlos of Spain coming to the USA a few years ago for medical care. Even though those stats cited indicate Spanish healthcare is superior to American care.
The question asked of me was whether Americans have it "better" than the Dutch, Norwegians ect. You then cite stats which suggest that Cubans have it better.
I didn't. As above.{{WHEW}} Really BobbyO, I have to wonder what criteria you had in mind when you pronounce the U.S. better than everyone else?
Was England a wealthier country in 1950 than in 1850? After going from accounting 50% of worldwide manufacturing to probably 10%?Maybe in terms of real dollars, but not in terms of percentage.
Those stats do not prove anything of the sort-- except that the USA has been in recession.The Middle Class in America Is Radically Shrinking. Here Are the Stats to Prove it - Yahoo Finance, 2010 - "The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer at a staggering rate."
You mean the companies employing all those Americans??? Ford Says It's Patriotic to Buy a Mustang, but Sienna Is Made In Indiana With More U.S. Parts
Does "Made in America" Still Mean Anything? - Edmunds.com - "For example, Chrysler's retro PT Cruiser may recall American cars of the prewar era, but it's produced at a Chrysler plant in Toluca, Mexico. And according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA), only 35 percent of the PT Cruiser's content is sourced in the U.S. or Canada. The "American" Ford Fusion contains just 30-percent U.S./Canadian content, whereas the competing "Japanese" Honda Accord contains 70 percent, Nissan Altima 65 percent and Toyota Camry 80 percent.
Conversely, the all-new Toyota Tundra (engineered in the U.S. and produced at Toyota's newest manufacturing facility in San Antonio, Texas) is as wholly American as any Japanese vehicle has been to date."
See... that's what 'globalization' means.
So what is the issue?
Yeah Bobby, we rule don't we, Sieg Heil!Chuck Berry's-- "Everything you want, we got right here in the USA."
While reading through your links, I could not help but recall King Juan Carlos of Spain coming to the USA a few years ago for medical care. Even though those stats cited indicate Spanish healthcare is superior to American care.
The question asked of me was whether Americans have it "better" than the Dutch, Norwegians ect. You then cite stats which suggest that Cubans have it better.
Now, have you ever been to these countries that are according to every single (genuine) stat/poll/etc superior to us (Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc)? Is it possible, and please, try being open minded to this flabbergasting possibility, that you have been indoctrinated by parents, culture and general media that "we are the best" and it isn't actually True?
Could it? Give it a couple of seconds thought before answering, could it be that other places are BETTER then us? What do you think? Is it possible? I mean, Dad told you we are the best, CNN and FOX tells us every day, OPRAH WINFREY tells us, she would never lie, and the average joe on the street says so to, and who are we to question the same people thinking the world is younger then some Trees?
What do you think Bobby? Is it possible?
NOT POSSIBLE!
Just ask Libnutz...
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Sure, back in the 50's when Chuck Berry was actually singing. Alas, that was 50 years ago.
IF you happen to be stinking rich, then yeah, American health care is wonderful for those who can afford it.
Except few Americans are stinking rich, and clearly you didn't look at the placed right in front of you. Until this year (the foreclosure crisis) health care costs were the single leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States. Gawd bless, America.
By any chance, do you know what Medical Tourism is, Bobby? It's the exact opposite of King Juan Carlos. It's Americans who actually travel abroad for medical procedures, because even with the flight and hotels, it's more affordable than staying here.
Canadians live longer, healthier lives than Americans - Universal Healthcare works!
I cited stats which suggest that most affluent, modern nations have it better than we do... certainly including the Norwegians and Dutch. You want me to break it down just for them???
Shall we start with infant mortality again??? >>>>>> Sweden - 3rd, Japan - 4th, France - 8th, Finland - 9th, Norway - 11th, Germany - 15th, Switzwerland - 16th, Spain - 17th, Denmark - 22nd, Austria - 23rd, Belgium - 24th, Netherlands - 27th, Australia - 28th, United Kingdom - 30th, Canada - 34th..........
...........United States - 45th
Shall I keep going?
In real Pounds? - almost certainly. In adjusted Pounds? - almost certainly not, given 1850 was still the height of the British Empire.
For the past 25 years???? I don't think so.
Is the Middle Class Shrinking? - TIME Magazine
Stats show shrinking middle class - AmericaBlog
You a Libertarian, BobbyO? From the Ludvig von Mises Institute... "The 22 statistics detailed here prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the middle class is being systematically wiped out of existence in America."
That the global economy is not a policy, it's a condition, a reality, and that simply because we're America doesn't guarantee us a damn thing, and for the past 40-30 years Americans have had their heads up their... laurels.
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I don't suffer from insanity... I thoroughly enjoy it
[QUOTE]What's with the sieg heil comment? You are the one suggesting its a problems for foreigners to produce goods and services which Americans consume.
France, Italy, Switzerland, Ireland, Belgium.Now, have you ever been to these countries that are according to every single (genuine) stat/poll/etc superior to us (Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc)? Is it possible, and please, try being open minded to this flabbergasting possibility, that you have been indoctrinated by parents, culture and general media that "we are the best" and it isn't actually True?
Yet again, the question asked was whether the USA has it better.
And the answer to that remains "yes." Is the USA the best in everything? No. Never said it was it was. Is it perfect? of course not.
[Chuck is still singing and giving concerts monthly. Alas, I suspect the quality has declined.QUOTE=Sonart;746995].
Sure, back in the 50's when Chuck Berry was actually singing. Alas, that was 50 years ago.
Yep. A problem. Americans have acces to some of the the best health care on earth. The question is to figure is to build upon that strength.Except few Americans are stinking rich, and clearly you didn't look at the placed right in front of you. Until this year (the foreclosure crisis) health care costs were the single leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States. Gawd bless, America.
And also in search of procedures/medicines which have yet to be approved in the USA.By any chance, do you know what Medical Tourism is, Bobby? It's the exact opposite of King Juan Carlos. It's Americans who actually travel abroad for medical procedures, because even with the flight and hotels, it's more affordable than staying here.
Sure. "universal" health care works.Canadians live longer, healthier lives than Americans - Universal Healthcare works!
A holy "sieg heil" moment. The UK is wealthier, yet because it didn't keep its dominance, it is a problem.In real Pounds? - almost certainly. In adjusted Pounds? - almost certainly not, given 1850 was still the height of the British Empire.
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You certainly implied it. David asked you, "how are other countries compared to us? Take Sweden, Norway, Holland and so on, do we have it better or worse then people in these nations?"
You simply responded "Better".
So I asked 'better at what?' Having more total money? Yeah, sure. But we also have a higher percentage of poor people. Having more guns? Yeah. We also have more murder and violence per person. Having more freedoms? Again, freedoms at what? Are we wealthier? Sure, if you happen to be rich. Are we healthier? No. Happier? No. Safer? No. Better educated? No. I refer you to my lists.
So by all means, Bobby... share with us all the ways the U.S. is "Better".
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I don't suffer from insanity... I thoroughly enjoy it
Behavior is a factor in "success", no question. However, it seems we both agree that even when behavior is the best it can possibly be success is not guaranteed. I would say that even survival is not guaranteed. Where we disagree, it seems, is in the weight we give to "behavior".
For example, I have a peripheral involvement with writers who are producing novels that are superior to much of what is now on bookstore shelves. Their works are not being published, not because they write poor novels that wouldn't sell, but because of factors beyond their influence that are intrinsic to the publishing industry which is under pressures that it too, in general, has no control over.
My argument is that the notion that if you work hard, and play by the rules, you'll succeed is a misleading.
There are also many examples, Paris Hilton comes to mind, of people who don't work hard and don't play by the rules (at least our "rules"0, but succeed nonetheless. Many people who inherit their wealth, are born into wealthy families, or win lotteries succeed in spite of themselves.
So, by all means work hard, just don't expect to succeed if you do. You will be more likely to succeed, but don't be surprised if factors beyond your control conspire to disappoint. Don't be surprised if you find yourself working as a greeter at Walmart alongside General Motors and Enron retirees. Or worse find yourself homeless sharing a ventilation great with an Iraq war veteran.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire
Holy mother... Eh.. OK...
I didn't think you actually would say such a thing, would you mind provide evidence and also a definition of what you define as "better"?
We have it better then Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Holland, right? How so?
And once again, I will ask you how it is that you determine "better".
If you want to go on an off-mountain road trip, you drive a jeep.
If you want to get 50 MPG, you drive a Prius.
If you want to go fast, you drive a Lamborgini (sp?).
If you want to haul hay, you drive an F-150.
Not all countries need offer the exact same things....what a boring world that would be.
In fact, it is the diversity of countries that makes things so exciting. You can look at one and see things you like and possibly imitate....or you can decide that really isn't what YOU want (does not make it bad, wrong or inferior).
So what metric do you use to determine who is better and who created the scale to start with (and why were they qualified to do so ?) ?
BobbyO, you said the middle class has been getting smaller because they are moving up into the top 10%, I'm still waiting for that source to verify your claim. Or would you rather take that back?
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Oh Bobby's right about that, NJL, the middle class are moving up. He just forgot the important qualifier... SOME are moving up, and in the case of moving into the Top 10%, 'some' would be very few. Most are stagnating or descending into the lower class, and some even into poverty.
30 Statistics That Prove the Elite Are Getting Richer, the Poor Are Getting Poorer and the Middle Class Is Being Destroyed - LewRockwell.com
1 – As of 2007, the top 1 percent of all Americans was taking home 24 percent of the national income. This was a level that had not been seen since the days of the Great Depression.
2 – Incomes have been growing in the United States, but those at the very top of the pyramid have been gobbling up almost all of the income growth. According to Harvard Magazine, 66% of the income growth between 2001 and 2007 went to the top 1% of all Americans.
3 – Even official government figures bear out the fact that the rich are getting richer. An analysis of income-tax data by the Congressional Budget Office a few years ago found that the top 1% of all American households own nearly twice as much of the corporate wealth as they did just 15 years ago.
4- Most Americans have suffered during the last few years, but not the boys and girls down on Wall Street. New York state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli says that Wall Street bonuses for 2009 were up 17 percent when compared with 2008.
5 – Even as the number of Americans living in poverty skyrockets, the number of millionaires just keeps growing. In fact, the number of millionaires in the United States rose a whopping 16 percent to 7.8 million during 2009.
6 – The amount of money some of these Wall Street hotshots are making is incredible. Back in 2005, the top 25 hedge fund managers earned a total of 9 billion dollars. That would be bad enough, but even in these hard economic times the rich just keep getting richer. One year after the recent financial collapse the top 25 hedge fund managers earned a total of approximately $25 billion. That breaks down to an average of $1 billion each. The truth is that the United States has been experiencing uneven prosperity for quite some time and things just seem to get worse with each passing year.
(secondary links those provided by the LewRockwell.com. Lew Rockwell is an American libertarian political commentator and chairman of the Ludwig von Mises Institute.)
Middle-class losing health care coverage at record pace - Sept. 2009
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I don't suffer from insanity... I thoroughly enjoy it
Well, you're missing the context. He said the size of the poor was increasing because of illegal immigrants and the middle class was shrinking because they were moving up, out of the middle class.
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