Bush -Kerry 2nd debate (spin).

[Technosoul]

President Bush was surprised to find out he owned a small logging company when Kerry mentioned it. Fact is the did buy shares in a small tember company and profits form that showed up on his last tax return, which in a legal sense made him small busness owner. That was my highlite as the most interesting part of the debate. The rest was more or less repeating the same-o same-0 but the host reporters said they thought the debates were "getting hotter" - whatever that means. Perhaps because Bush called Kerry "dangerous" which is what Bush had also said about Saddam. So they exchanged bad names and Kerry also said that inventing titles for things means nothing at all. After the show people interviewed said that Kerry did not fully explain what he would do about outsourcing of jobs - guess they do not know they can go to webpages to find out.

I do not think any one of them made a big blunder that would cause a tidal wave of opinion changes. Anyway most people were getting ready for "thank God it's Friday" and did pay attention - hmmm, guess I should take God out of that saying just be consitutional.

All and all we have much better debates right here.

Anyone want to buy some used firewood?

Technosoul.

[gr8fuldaniel]

You can participate in all these polls by starting at this link: Political Strategy

* MSNBC
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 78%
Bush: 22%

* CNN (Scroll Down to 'Quick Vote')
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 83%
Bush: 16%

* CNN America Votes (This is different from the on above. Vote in both!)
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 89%
Bush: 11%

* CBS News
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 88%
Bush: 11%

* Fox News (Scroll Down)
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 70%
Bush: 30%

* Boston Globe
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 86%
Bush: 11%

* AOL
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 56%
Bush: 44%

* Yahoo News
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 66%
Bush: 32%

* MS. Magazine
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 67%
Bush: 33%

Online Polls in Swing States (Hit em Hard!)

* KOLO TV Reno, NV (Scroll Down)
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 90%
Bush: 10%

* Asheville Citizen-Times, NC (Scroll Down)
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 87%
Bush: 13%

* Denver Channel, CO
Ongoing Poll Results
Kerry: 77%
Bush: 23%


Touchy-Feely Online Polls

* PBS (Qualitative Poll)

* BBC (Qualitative Poll)


Non-interactive poll results:

CNN/USA TODAY/Gallup debate reaction poll (not an online poll)

Who won the debate?
Kerry: 47%
Bush: 45%

How many people perceive the following candidate more favorably as a result of the debate?
Kerry: 38%
Bush: 31%

[Sonart]

Kinda fascinating. I thought Kerry won too, but I just figured I'm probably a bit biased.

Bush seemed a more collected, but he still seemed to be on the defensive most of the time, at least early on. He also seemed a bit.... strident, a bit 'thou dost protest too much'.

[kharmajunkie]

Who cares who won the debate? By my count, I didn't hear a domestic issues question until the forty-first minute of the debate yet both sides touted this debate as the "domestic issues" debate. I call out Charles Gibson and ABC News for not sticking to the debate outline from jumpstreet. I'm sure none of this will come out since that's questioning the media; which is almost as unheard of as questioning our inept Executive branch. Every Democrat and Republican in America should be ashamed of their candidate tonight for not sticking to tonight's pre-ordained topics. If you don't at least question them then I question your "patriotic american" street cred.

[Young]

Karma NO the Next Debate is the Domestic Debate, the Town hall is audience (preapproved) ?'s half foreign policy half Domestic


Young's Debate scorecard round by round

1 - Kerry Wishy washy ? - Kerry tried, Bush gets the Best of this exchange

2 - No Wmd's - Bush looks Bad, Kerry Wins....Bush rebute sounds desperate, and when Kerry counters Bush's lips are readable.."Shit"

3 - They Hate Us! - Neither answers the woman on how to get Our resepct back, Kerry sounds Best, Bush rebute is summed up with "EH"

4 - Iran - Kerry, "We'll get Tough" good closer...Bush response - Sad

5 - Draft - Bush "No Draft" Kerry's response was Like Gotcha & it gave Kerry the Win, Then Bush steals some time breaking rules....and all it turns out to be is a cheap joke answer that gets some laughs.

6 - How will Kerry protect Us - Kerry Wins, Bush response, Looked as though he might cry, Kerry responds to a weak Bush moment and all i could say was "BLA" this was where Kerry began to tire out....He does that You know.

7 - Why block drugs - Bush makes Promises, Kerry pulls another GOTCHA by reminding the crowd that Bush made the same Promises 4 years ago..then failed to deliver, Bush responds with Safety first BS, like Mexican trucks polution to our air isn't serious....NO Bush wants to keep drug company friends and donations, In Kerry's follow up he hits Bush hard and the Crowd makes noises Not heard again as Kerry points out Our debt.

8 - Kerry's VP choice - Hardest ? for Kerry all Night, and he failed to defend Edwards as a Man, but then Bush calls his opponent Senator kennedy & his attack on Edwards is Sad to say the least, Kerry responds with what i thought was the Best Hit, as for people who were paying attn, Kerry Told Bush he'd Lost the Debate in a snappy way....with His Batting 0-2 statement and at that point I thought Kerry Had Won the Debate....but the Debate didn't end then and that was the last peak for Kerry....again over a period of time Kerry gets boring, Bush doesn't because you just can't wait to see if Bush will blatantly Lie, Misspeak, or Make crazy faces.

9 - To Bush: Why don't you fund what you Sign - Bush gave a BS answer and Kerry got a solid jab in here as he introduced the top 1% tax cut sucks theme, Bush responds but doesn't gain points, then Kerry Blasts Him with Enron.

10 - To Kerry: Will you Lower Taxes - Kerry looked at the Camera and Promised He'd Lower Taxes on Families making under $200,000 a year, Bush responded with a real line of BS and 20 seconds into what he knew was BS Bush asked, "Is my time Up"? I was thinking just a few more days, just a few more days......Kerry then Fails to Burn Bush and further falls into the "You could fall asleep if he keeps talking mode"

11 - How will Bush curb Pollution - Bush's answer and claims added up to "Yea Right" and even Bush knew it was BS....Kerry swung back with Bush "Not in Reality" & Busted Bush pretty hard, but this issue was far to easy...Bush would of Rather it Not be asked, it was one of Bush's weakest points, Bush responded again but with Lies, Kerry got another response and offered that Bush hadn't fixed It Talking about Kyoto, but honestly Kerry was still putting me to sleep.

12 - To Kerry: How can the U.S. stay competitive - Very sleepy! Cut loopholes & Bush has No Plan, Bush's only response was to Blame Kerry & Others, Kerry responds with accusations, Bush makes more Jokes, "I met People...."

13 - To Bush: Why take Our Rights - Bush was very Weak on need for the Patriot act with all its provisions intact, Kerry was Strong on Us needing to cut some things out of it...things that could be used against the American people.

14 - To Kerry: Embryonic stem cell - Kerry said Yes, but to do it ethically, Bush was Strong in His response because i very much see Bush's side too, Kerry then claims Bush has Lied and Not done as Bush had just said He had, Bush's response wasn't Hard enough and included the words, "I had to Destroy More Life" This was Bad to hear Bush say,as it played into other things and could be used in the Future against him if it were used out of context.

15 - To Bush: Supreme court: Bush "I'm Not tellin" Promised that Under God would stay, Kerry said he wants Even handed Judges....I want the kinda Judges Bush says He'd appoint, but then Bush says His Favorite is justice Scallia and thats a Man who Duck hunts with Dick Cheney 3 days before ruling on a case of whether or Not Cheney can keep secrets...then Scallia tells a group of Harvard students that Orgies should be Promoted throughout soceity to relieve stress. So really Kerry was Lying, we Know he'd appoint a Liberal Judge, whats scary is He could appoint an anti Christian Judge.

16 - To Kerry: On Abortion - Kerry, "Abortions Bad, but I can't tell people what to do" Bush....Very Strong! Kerry...Raped Girl (by Father) Consent wrong in those cases...Very Strong, Bush Points out a Kerry NO vote and that sticks.

17 - To Bush: Name some Mistakes - Bush doesn't really answer other than "some appointments, won't name names, don't wanna embarass anyone" points out He thinks still that Afghanistan, Iraq, & Tax Cuts were Good choices....Afghanistan was Never ?'ed as a Bad choice, KerryJumped on Iraq "No Plan, Rushed, Un-prepared", Bush comes back with and it was Strong "You didn't Vote for the 87 Billion", Kerry puts Bush on the Mat with...."I wasn't intending to contribute to More Haliburton Slush Funds"

Kerry's Conclusion - DRY, & I was tired of looking at Kerry and really tired of hearing him Talk because he wasn't making Points that were Hard Hitters, He was just giving a summation...Overall i thought the summation's wording was Ok, just weakly presented.

Bush's Conclusion - He made a lot of Promises, after 4 years of time to do something, those promises felt empty, it sounded like and i hate to use these words, but "More of the Same"

Unlike last Time Bush made less mistakes, Kerry turned himself down a notch, but on what was said Kerry Won, but by Bush Not Fing up his presentation and mannerisms as badly as he did before it seemed to counter Kerry.

Bush Lied about Not owning a Timber company.

Broke a Rule and i'm Not saying that "Tell that to Tony Blair" wasn't OK, I'm saying that looked Bad to people Not in Love with Bush.

I very Much thought that Kerry had Won, then i watched Kerry give up enough to where i thought it was a Tie. I thought the ?'s could've been much harder.

I think we should have a Live Fact check system, that pauses the Debate when one side Lies or misrepresents.

I came away thinking that No one's opinion would be changed by what i'd seen.

I took a look around here and i saw a trend.....In what wasn't a Bush Loss....but was Nowhere near a Bush Win, The Bushies Here Jumped to Spin it as a Big Win for Bush, they tried this out after the Cheney V. Edwards tie....and later we found out that Cheney Lied 10 Times in that debate which obviously didn't make Him the Winner, so tonight it was like they had to say Bush Won as they really are getting desperate....they're quick to look at polls they used to base evrything on and Now they call them unworthy or "Hacked" Foxnews polls are usually a standard for..If they get Bad for Bush....Bush is in trouble! Many Bushies were in during the Debate trying to place swing on the Debate before it even finished...to me that was a lil scary, only a fool would see half a movie a claim to know the ending. I also detected that Pro Kerry people were quick to turn that Bushy stance into a Joke and make a laugher out of it, so i want the Bushies in all fairness to know....the Pro Kerry group really saw this as a tie...their only adding spin because of the amazing outlandish spin that Bushies were silly enough to attempt to add. A Tie is good for Bush, i doesn't help Kerry or hurt Bush....The problem is when America wakes up in the morning this lil thing called reality sets back in and Bush is still very much on a slide that nothing other than an October surprise shall save him from.....I was very surprised that Now we've been through two Debates and Never...Not once has any on looker caused a scene, i thought we'd see that, but maybe Wednesday i guess. Bushies should be proud of Bush....He Didn't LOSE the Election tonight........but neither did Kerry and Bush is in very Hot water.

[kharmajunkie]

This debate was touted as a domestic issues debate Young. I'm aware of the Town Hall format and Gibson/ABC has the final say on the questions asked since he's moderating. It was sensationalist TerrorIraq bullshit for the first forty or so minutes of the debate which went against what was advertised; I guess that's par for the two
party course though so I should be used to it.

I pretty much agree with your debate scoring though. I thought Bush would do better in this forum compared to last week's but he didn't show that at all.

And why is Bush accusing Kerry of not being fically conservative? George is the first tax&spend theocrat; how unAmerican is that?

[bishop]

i had good intentions of watching it last night.. instead, a buddy came over and we drank some beers.. he's a bush supporter, so we ended up having our own drunken but heated debate. from what i saw, things were pretty heated on stage last night. kerry pulled every conceivable accusation that he could, bush slandered as much as possible.

it was interesting to see how bush was going to evade all of the unsavory reports that have been coming out. also interesting to see him hurl accusations (like kerry being a tax and spend liberal) when he has no legs of his own to stand on.

[Scribbler1]

From the Mr. and Mrs. Middle America viewpoint.

About the timber company: Before our conservative colleagues answer this I have to say I though Bush was being completely honest in his answer. He almost surely honestly DIDN'T know about it. If a rich man owns 40% of a McDonalds in Oshkosh he likely has no idea he does and 80-something bucks from this outfit would seem to fit that criteria.
From the viewpoint of the average Joe, however, Bush made his mistake by not ignoring it and trying to blow it off as a cheap Kerry lie. When 2 minutes after the debate Peter Jennings tells the viewers Bush indeed DOES own part of the timber company, THAT will stick with the uncommitted voter.

Whether it is BS or not, looking directly into the camera (while pointedly SAYING he is looking into it) and promising NOT to raise taxes on the Midle Class is a big positive for Kerry. It's probably a lie but it plays in Peoria. Risky too, as we recall what happened to H.W. Bush.

I don't know how many people caught this, but Bush seemed to make up some of his stuff on the fly to tailor his attack against Kerry. The biggest instance I noticed (to bolster his claim that Kerry's pessimism was such a turn-off) was when he told us how the Iraqi Foreign Minister was so upbeat and optimistic while visiting the Oval Office, but when he turned on the TV he became downright depressed.
Does anybody here buy that? Does a visiting dignitary from ANYWHERE spend obviously valuable time watching TV with the president? It's like the Foreign Minister from a country where US troops are fighting his people shows up at the White House with a six pack and a bag of chips saying, Yo George, what's on the toob?"
It's similar to standup comics, who seem to have an endless supply of anecdotes of things happening in airports when it is clear they are making these things up.

And I love it when Bush creates new words. Did anyone notice when he meant to say "bilateral relations" he compressed it to "bilaterelations"? I know, just a slip of the tongue and I'm not being critical. It just sounded cool, unlike "NUCULAR" :)

On thing that bothered me was toward the end, when Bush rattled off a laundry list of things he was "proposing" in an effort to counter Kerry's listing the negative aspects of Bush's administration. My first thought was Bush was AGREEING with Kerry and telling us how he "proposed" to fix these things. I thought "one month before the election and he's PROPOSING all this? What the hell has he done with the four years the people gave him in the first place?"

[bishop]

okay.. i just looked at it again, sober this time.

personally, i was very impressed with kerry. the part where kerry was asked to look into the camera was exceptional imo. as a republican, the fact that kerry was part of the balanced budget act means a lot to me. then, bush just went prancing around with his redneck twang, constantly labeling kerry as a "liberal".. ooohhh boogeyman liberal's gonna steal your babies! name-calling is not impressive whatsoever.

i also grew tired of the tone of bush's comments.. it sounded like he was whining at best, desperately whining at worst. "why won't you people agree with me??" that redneck twang and his mangling of the english language made me cringe. i'd hate to be the person who has to type up transcripts of the debate.

bush is in trouble, and it's clear that he knows it. kerry was on the offensive the entire night and held up exceptionally well against bush's attacks. bush was on defense even when he was trying to play offense.

bush had absolutely NO right to criticize kerry's spending proposals.. not when bush was handed a huge surplus then turned it around into the largest deficit in american history. the dot-com bust and 9/11 were definitely costly, but that hardly justifies alllll of the unnecessary spending that bush has signed. he has no credibility whatsoever - at least kerry has people on his team that actually know how to balance a budget.

and i was pleased to see kerry play the gotcha game, or simply highlight bush's b.s. - because the american people do deserve to be told the truth.

i can't fathom the notion of people rewarding bush for f'ing up royally and sending us into iraq - especially in the way he chose to invade (without authorization or necessity or sufficient troop levels or sufficient equipment or a post-war plan, etc...). and then bush trying to claim that invading wasn't a mistake - even now knowing that saddam did not have any wmd's. everybody thought that saddam had bad intentions, but we did have iraq completely contained - including hundreds of inspectors on the ground. that cost us FAR less, and nobody died in the process. the war was not necessary even in light of the fact that saddam had ill intentions.

[macnpat]

I am of the opinion that Bush won this hands down.

Kerry contradicted himself on two occasions. That showed me that Kerry's rhetoric is not founded on an indepth core values, but on that which simply plays on Bush's political weaknesses.

Now that's all fair and square to do that, but how does that make Kerry a better leader than Bush? It don't.

Kerry uses the rhetoric, "I have a plan". His plan includes increasing troops by 40,000. How? Bush is going to get his troops realigned strategically from Europe. Makes sense.

Kerry says, I have a plan. I will get Russia, Germany and France to a grand summit. To do what? Divey up the Iraqi oil resources as payment to put troops in? Isn't that just what Saddam did to these very same countries? Didn't Saddam bribe them?

Kerry is skerry.

[Sonart]

I am of the opinion that Bush won this hands down.

Now there's a surprise. :rolleyes:

[Young]

Mac - I Invented that, type it Right, John is sKerry.

You may think Bush won, but NO Poll agreed with you.

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Sonart, Now there's a surprise. :rolleyes:

Yes, and what better place to say "KUDOS to Bush" than here at Volconvo where the lefties whine and dine on the blood of Republicans. he he

What, no retort, Sonart?

Nice to see ya. You ole doggie lover!!!

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Young, Mac - I Invented that, type it Right, John is sKerry.

Well, dayam, oopsies and my bad!!! sKerry it is. LOL

You may think Bush won, but NO Poll agreed with you.

Yeah, people like me should read the polls before proffering an opinion of our own. Some of us are just upstarts, I guess.

Come visit us every once in a while. Mr. Young. We'll set ya straight.

[Starboy]

What ever the polls say I think that Bush is a poor excuse for a president when he can't rely on his record to get him reelected and has to run what essentially amounts to an anybody but Kerry campaign. That is not the sort of campaign that a competent administration should have to run. We may not know what Kerry would do exactly but if what Bush has done is not enough to get him reelected then it is time for a change.

In other words there is a record for Bush, there is no record for Kerry. Kerry must run on a campaign that the administration is incompetent. The logical response from the incumbent is to demonstrate that the administration is one of competence and therefore should be reelected. What I saw last night from Bush was essentially the same campaign as Kerry. This is not what the incumbent should be doing if he wants people to think he is competent. He should be running on his record. But since the Bush record sucks he is forced to run an anybody but Kerry campaign. Even Bush knows he sucks.

Starboy

[RickSp]

Bush lost because he didn't win. After his pathetic performance in the first debate he needed a strong performance to slow the Kerry momentum. He didn't give it. At best, he fought Kerry to a tie. Of the two, Kerry looked at least as serious and capable as Bush, which immediately translates into a loss for Bush.

[macnpat]

Originally posted by RickSp, Kerry looked at least as serious and capable as Bush, which immediately translates into a loss for Bush.

Only to those who don't know the facts. Kerry said once that our troops were all committing war crimes when they were not. He also said that he threw his medals away, then recanted and said he had them to this day and was proud of them. Kerry said he's going to get more troops than Bush can get. You want to tell me how? Kerry won't say. Kerry says he will get France and Russia and Germany into our political development of Iraq. I have a newsclip of him saying he was wrong, they won't go and he now admits it.

Why would you vote for a man who is so wishy washy when there is so much at stake? What kind of message does that send to terrorists? I'll tell you:

"please kerry, we don't care what you got to do, just help us to forget about 9/11 and the cole and Saddam invading Kuwait and Iran creating death and destruction in the M.E. right alongside the terrorists. We are a frightened Nation and we would rather just enjoy life until the next terrorist plot is hatched to kill a few more thousand of us at home.

Just keep the rhetoric positive and don't let us see it coming, we will believe anything you say for that luxury."

[Starboy]

macnpat, I can see that the Bush campaign has got you hornswaggled. As long as the only thing the Bush campaign can do is make the case that Kerry would be worse than Bush then Bush has already lost because it is an implicit admission by the Bush campaign that the Bush record as president sucks. All he can do is make Kerry look bad, he can't make himself look good. And it shows in your arguments because that is all you got.

Starboy

[macnpat]

Originally posted by Starboy, macnpat, I can see that the Bush campaign has got you hornswaggled. As long as the only thing the Bush campaign can do is make the case that Kerry would be worse than Bush then Bush has already lost because it is an implicit admission by the Bush campaign that the Bush record as president sucks. All he can do is make Kerry look bad, he can't make himself look good. And it shows in your arguments because that is all you got. Starboy

I don't even listen to campaign rhetoric. I look at issues and I have had the personal privilege of being involved indirectly in this war against terror.

I can't sit here and say that Bush has done everthing right. I can't even say that no one could have handled it better. What I can say is that Kerry is out of touch with the savagery and evil that confronts us. Further, Kerry still can't understand that if our major WWII allies were willing to accept bribes from Saddam Hussein to violate United Nations sanctions, we are pretty much alone in defending our interests globally.

More later, got company.

[Starboy]

macnpat, I have no doubt that those are your convictions but the anybody but Kerry campaign that the Bush administration is waging is damning evidence that you have more confidence in them then they have in themselves.

Starboy