Political Correctness

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Already we see a bit of that ugly animal, political correctness. But it is not the animal it is made out to be. It is not some vast conspricy of one side or the other, it is simply the 'round off' error on social issues.

John and Adams are doing a splendid job of making it obvious so far. Adams does not understand that making an observation about a race does not have to be racist. John does not understand that he is judging an entire gene pool by the individuals that get noticed.

Who is right? They are both right, and they are both wrong. Yes, it is likely that a race that has lived a long time in a region where physical traits decide your survival, are very likely to come up short in an intelligence contest against a race that only competes with itself for survival. But intelligence is not the only measure of worth. But for some reason it is not racist to mention an advantage of a minority, or the weakness of a majority. Is that not also a form of racism? If racism is based on being the minority then only the Chinese are in the majority...

On the other hand, refusing to aknowedge differences in mental capability only further emphasises it's precieved importance. So by avoiding mentioning an intellectual lack you make the race feel even more inferior since you have just implied that they are too stupid to realize they are not intellectually equal.

But why do people make these silly connections? I can recognize that my race is not the most intellectually developed race on the planet, but I still have a high opinion of my own intelligence. I consider myself as an individual before a member of a race. I do not think I am so smart that I could raise the average IQ of my race, nor can a single moron lower it. So why is it racist to recognize that some races are smarter on the average? I have never talked to a race, all I have ever talked to are individuals. And I judge individuals as I meet them, they quit being a race the moment I talk to them...

[Jim]

making an observation about a race does not have to be racist

"Race" is a social construction. For me, "gypsy" is not a race, but in some parts of the world it is.

The act of recognizing races to be different from one another is automatically a "racist" act because races do not exist until you create them in your mind.

Example: Alice sees a group of 100 white people. She tests their problem solving skills with an objective test, and find an average score.

Bob sees this group of 100 people and identifies 60 Christians and 40 Jews. To him, these two groups are extremely different races. He runs the same test, and finds that the results show that one group is "smarter" than the other. So what's wrong with saying that Jews are smarter or dumber than Christians?

The problem is that they're the same group until you divide them in your mind. Alice says to Bob, "Jews and Christians aren't seperate races, they're all white!"

Bob says to Alice, "Yes they are, the tests clearly show that one group is smarter than the other, therefore they are seperate groups."

One could argue, black skinned people are physically different than white skinned people. True, but redheads are physically different from blondes, but we don't consider them a race. Why not? It's just as objective.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

If I had invented the concept of race, that reply would be relevant. I have to assume that it is human to put things into catagories because I was taught race, as well as terrian types, elements, star types, tempuratures, and many other catagories. The actual names of any of these groupings rarely has anything to do with implying superiority or inferiority. So why respond to me as if I invented the concept? My ignoring it will not make it go away, frankly, those intelligent to ignore it are rarely the problem to begin with.

[Jim]

Inventing it, and passing it on to another person, are no different. It's just inventing it for the next generation. Your ignoring of races will make them go away, but only for yourself. If everyone made that choice, the concept of race would go extinct. Furthermore, intelligence has nothing to do with racism. Stupid people can be just as open- or close-minded as intelligent people.

That said, I think it's nearly impossible to get rid of racist associations once they are learned. I do not have a solution (my 'demand' for you to "ignore" race was for the sake of argument).

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Sorry, I disagree. Intelligence does affect racism. An intelligent person is not immune, but he is significantly less likely to accept it. When I play chess at my college, every race is represented, and we base who we want to play a game with by skill not race. Over at the ping-pong table the story is different.

If you think it is the intelligent people that are responsible for the passing of fads you are sorely lacking in psychological observations. If intelligent people had control over fads, we would all be speaking esperanto by now...

[Jim]

Define intelligence. Do you mean education or mental abilities (or something else)? I'm using the latter definition. Brilliant people have been fierce racists. It is all about the society that they are raised in.

And when did I say anything about fads?

[Fallen Angel]

Why is race so important anyway, it could be a good idea for all job applications to be done blindfolding the interviewer, and race or racial predjudices not even be mentioned.
All the racial talk is doing in my country is creating more and more divisions between people.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Brilliant racists are the exception, not the rule. People are never measured by how tolerent they are. Only in the negative. I bet many of the brilliant people you know of you remember because of negative events, negative events are much more prone to stick in our memories. No surprise, forgetting something pleasent is seldomly fatal, forgetting something unpleasant often is.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Fallen
If you could please tell us where you hail from we may be able to reply to that...

[Fallen Angel]

Sorry, I'll put it up in my personals now.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Thank you.

[John]

Well, political correctness is turning my country into a bunch of softcocks. It is ruining our culture.

In this small country town there is a stand on a football feild called 'nigger' jones, it is named after one of that towns great footy players, no one in the town has a problem with it at all, it is paying tribute to a great player, as soon as some PC morons found out about it, there was a huge uproar, but luckily the name still remains.

We have a cheese called 'coon' cheese, aboriginals here have been chucking fits over it for years when it in no way is derogatory.

The term 'abbo' here is now deemed racist, apparently it means you dont think much of the aboriginal race, the people who deemed that word to be racist arent true aussies, it is australian culture to shorten words like that or make them easier to say, such as robbo for robert, or jacko for john or jack. Now the younger generation here is growing up in this stupid politically correct world, and it is destroying what Australia is.

There are lots of other examples of political corectness crap that goes on here and it absolutely makes my blood boil, you can not say much here without being accused of being racist.

Apparently calling someone black, when he is black is now not suitable???

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Sep 1 2003, 01:26 AM Adams does not understand that making an observation about a race does not have to be racist.

Hey hey, I did no such thing. I deem generalisations of an entire race, and then attacks made upon a race because of those generalisations to be racist. To say 'all negroes are black' isn't racist, its an observation. To say 'negroes have a genetic makeup favouring physical work, therefore they should be made to work' is racist. See the simple difference?

Now when John generalised that aboriginees are naturally less intelligent than white aussies, it racist, because a generalisation of a race are being imposed because of the actions of current members of that race.

Let me change this around a little bit to explain. Say that all Roma people one day stole something. Then they, as individuals, are thieves. But to say that all Roma are thieves is racist because you are attacking all past, present and future Roma, because they are born into a race that currently is dominated by thieves.

This isn't political correctness, at worst I'm dealing in only semantics, but it isn't PC crap. Thats on the level of what John's just said above.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Adams
The PC attitude of refusing to accept racial disadvantages along with racial advantages is an assertion of superiority. In other words racism against the majority. You may either ignore all racial differences or accept them all being selective is an attack on the majority race and how do you expect them to respond???

The policy of ignoring racial weaknesses is also detrimental to that race, you are insulting their intelligence, as well as their maturity, to assume that they cannot accept that their race has disadvantages.

Like I keep stressing, racial observations are only racism if diliberately slighting. The morons that display racism are therefore given more power by being the vehical to disrupt intelligent attempts to address the issue.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Sep 1 2003, 04:20 PM The policy of ignoring racial weaknesses is also detrimental to that race, you are insulting their intelligence, as well as their maturity, to assume that they cannot accept that their race has disadvantages.

Racial weakness's? Is this as a social group or specifially as a race? Japanese people tend to get drunk quicker than westerners because they used to have their water boiled with tea, while we fermented ours. But as this is changing in one generation this cannot be attributed to the japanese race, rather the situation they found themselves in. So this would be a 'racial' weakness as a social group rather than of the race.

Equally, the aboriginees could become intelligent if they were put in the right situations. So if someone insinuates that a race of people are less intelligent because of social situations, they are imposing false negative statistics upon that race rather than that social group.

People making the mistakes a definition between the social group and race is common and leads racism. If every Jewish person was rich it does not mean the Jewish race is rich, it means the social group, hereby defined by its race, is rich. And we know what happened when people thrust the social situations of some Jewish people upon the race, rather than the social group.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

All races share the same potential, I have never said differently. So here you are, assuming I am racist simply because I do not think the same you do. Which merely implies that you are the racist because you cannot accept someone that does not think like you do. (lol)

[G. Adams]

Argh, I never said you were a racist, I havn't seen anything you've written to suggest that. I was defending my claim earlier that John had made racist insinuations.

And, if what you said was true, it would not make me a racist, it would make me either biggoted and/or ignorant.

And I don't think I can be criticised for not tolerating what I don't agree with if I percieve as racist. It would be worse to sit back and say 'its just their view' if my consciounce is telling me otherwise.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

You did not follow the logic to the conclusion. If you reject the notion of racial weaknesses in minorities but accept racial disadvantages in them you are being racist toward the majority races.

If you are opposed to me because I think different than you, then you must be opposed to races and cultures that think different than you making you racist as well.

But bear in mind that I am not calling you a racist I am merely stating that the criterea you are using to judge another as racist applies, just as easily, to you. Failing to recognize differences is just as racist as pointing at them. IE...not at all.

[G. Adams]

I'm not discounting weakness' in the minorities while accepting it in the majority, I don't see any proof for a weakness in any race. Their may be weakness in the social group, such as apathy, unmotivated etc but not within the race.

I am not opposed to you, I'm merely objecting to be thrown under the banner of political correctness.

[Jim]

The policy of ignoring racial weaknesses is also detrimental to that race, you are insulting their intelligence, as well as their maturity, to assume that they cannot accept that their race has disadvantages.

Back when New York's inner cities were mostly populated by Jews in the early 1900s, basketball was thought to be a Jewish sport. It's thought of as a black sport now.

Do blacks have a racial advantage at basketball? No. There are no such things as racial advantages or disadvantages. They are all social effects.