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Nono · Sep 23, 2004, 02:30 pm

Another member suggested I relaunch this topic in its rightful place after it had been raped'n'vitiated and (final insult) moved to Butterface. I have changed the title and amended the text somewhat in an attempt to be polemically correct:

Are the Neocons currently in power in the US cynical, conspiratorial, manipulating perpetrators of Realpolitik at its nastiest? Or are they naive utopians? Is it possible to consider them as both simultaneously?

One could do worse than read the views of Seymour Hersh on this. The interview is verbatim and takes some effort. But it's gotta be a piece of the puzzle.

If you think the Neocons are authentic good guys, this whole discussion will no doubt seem pointless to you. It's really addressed to those who hold one or the other of the above-mentioned views.

Scribbler1 · Sep 23, 2004, 10:41 pm

I think THEY may, for the most part, be naive idealists, but the power that fuels them is money, and big bux is neither idealistic nor naive. They expect to GET what they pay for.

Technosoul · Sep 23, 2004, 11:38 pm

I would agree with Scribbler that the goals are rooted in material objectives because the war on Iraq was too long in the planning with special interest contracts for oil companies that transparently have close ties with the people in the White House. They no doubt had bad information or missguided hopes that it would be a peice of cake and so they did not fully expect the developing insurgency aspects. But it was clearly a busness deal from the get-go.

But to mastermind such a project they could not tell the public "hey, can we use your military to make a profit for our company". So they had to frame it in some kind of idealistic terminolgy to sell it to Americans who were not part of the loop when it came to cashing in on the project. What this reporter in the linkpage found out is that their attempt at making the war sound like the right thing to do was poorly constructed with some pretty far out fantasy aspects that might be too utopian in nature. The whole bilical sounding aspects included in thier speeches as part of their public relations promotional was rather overstated for the ears of skeptical people who are better balanced with logical understandings.

So I agree with both points. Yes, it was just a busness deal and yes, they attempted to sell the idea with a "fantastic" story and with a dream of a better world that only the ghost of nightmares could have inspired.

Now they will pass as perminate the massive tax refunds for the wealhty and eveyone is gung-ho for it because they will toss smaller crumbs to the middle class under the pretence this will save the couuntry and our economic stalemate, due to outsourcing as our jobs sink into the quicksands of corperate management.

Technosoul.

Rainbow · Sep 24, 2004, 12:05 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Scribbler1,
I think THEY may, for the most part, be naive idealists, but the power that fuels them is money, and big bux is neither idealistic nor naive. They expect to GET what they pay for.

Not much to ad, except that : THEY (most likely) feel fine and enjoy it.
"Games", that is all what it takes. It is a sort of "drug".

Technosoul · Sep 24, 2004, 12:31 am

Rainbow, you might be right with that additonal apsect. Power is like a drug that can cause people to have grand illusions of their roles for history, like a drug it can be abused.

Good addition to debate.

Technosoul.

gr8fuldaniel · Sep 24, 2004, 02:02 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nono,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nono,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Are the Neocons currently in power in the US cynical, conspiratorial, manipulating perpetrators of Realpolitik at its nastiest? Or are they naive utopians? Is it possible to consider them as both simultaneously?[/b]

cynical? No I believe a cynic is honest. These guys are deceitful.
conspiratorial? Absolutely, they are all in on it like true Bonesmen. Notice nobody has been fired for the worst obscenities in history.
manipulating perpetrators of Realpolitik at its nastiest? I see absurdities and fantasies at work in the Orwellian policy they have forced on us.
Or are they naive utopians? Naive, no (Their supporters are, but I suspect, the leaders know exactly what they are pulling)...Utopians, yes

Is it possible to consider them as both simultaneously? No, They know exactly what they are doing and are thumbing their noses at the world.

<!--QuoteBegin-Nono,
If you think the Neocons are authentic good guys, this whole discussion will no doubt seem pointless to you. It's really addressed to those who hold one or the other of the above-mentioned views.[/quote]I see right through the whole act. These guys are diabolical and do not mind murdering millions of innocent human beings. They are in it for power and wealth and there is some sick childish dare behind it all. Some of them may even think its all just a cool video game. They feel no connection to people of lower status quo. These are true elitists.

PatrickHenry · Sep 24, 2004, 02:28 am

I am with you on this question, Danny. The neocons know exactly what they're doing and they are cagey chess players, often thinking quite a few moves ahead.

HA! But they still make mistakes amd miscalculate. They are not supermen, just conscienceless. Sometimes they royally screw up, but they don't give up. They just keep on spinning and lying and the gullible masses suck it all down, like cheap beer.

Naive? I guess if you could consider alligators innocent...

Sep 23, 2004, 02:30 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,759	Another member suggested I relaunch this topic in its rightful place after it had been raped'n'vitiated and (final insult) moved to Butterface. I have changed the title and amended the text somewhat in an attempt to be polemically correct: Are the Neocons currently in power in the US cynical, conspiratorial, manipulating perpetrators of Realpolitik at its nastiest? Or are they naive utopians? Is it possible to consider them as both simultaneously? One could do worse than read the views of Seymour Hersh on this. The interview is verbatim and takes some effort. But it's gotta be a piece of the puzzle. If you think the Neocons are authentic good guys, this whole discussion will no doubt seem pointless to you. It's really addressed to those who hold one or the other of the above-mentioned views. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Sep 23, 2004, 10:41 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	I think THEY may, for the most part, be naive idealists, but the power that fuels them is money, and big bux is neither idealistic nor naive. They expect to GET what they pay for. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Sep 24, 2004, 02:28 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	I am with you on this question, Danny. The neocons know exactly what they're doing and they are cagey chess players, often thinking quite a few moves ahead. HA! But they still make mistakes amd miscalculate. They are not supermen, just conscienceless. Sometimes they royally screw up, but they don't give up. They just keep on spinning and lying and the gullible masses suck it all down, like cheap beer. Naive? I guess if you could consider alligators innocent... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Sep 23, 2004, 11:38 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	I would agree with Scribbler that the goals are rooted in material objectives because the war on Iraq was too long in the planning with special interest contracts for oil companies that transparently have close ties with the people in the White House. They no doubt had bad information or missguided hopes that it would be a peice of cake and so they did not fully expect the developing insurgency aspects. But it was clearly a busness deal from the get-go. But to mastermind such a project they could not tell the public "hey, can we use your military to make a profit for our company". So they had to frame it in some kind of idealistic terminolgy to sell it to Americans who were not part of the loop when it came to cashing in on the project. What this reporter in the linkpage found out is that their attempt at making the war sound like the right thing to do was poorly constructed with some pretty far out fantasy aspects that might be too utopian in nature. The whole bilical sounding aspects included in thier speeches as part of their public relations promotional was rather overstated for the ears of skeptical people who are better balanced with logical understandings. So I agree with both points. Yes, it was just a busness deal and yes, they attempted to sell the idea with a "fantastic" story and with a dream of a better world that only the ghost of nightmares could have inspired. Now they will pass as perminate the massive tax refunds for the wealhty and eveyone is gung-ho for it because they will toss smaller crumbs to the middle class under the pretence this will save the couuntry and our economic stalemate, due to outsourcing as our jobs sink into the quicksands of corperate management. Technosoul.

Sep 24, 2004, 12:31 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	Rainbow, you might be right with that additonal apsect. Power is like a drug that can cause people to have grand illusions of their roles for history, like a drug it can be abused. Good addition to debate. Technosoul.