How the Palestinians could defeat Israel.

[grandpa]

Israel will not be defeated, it says so in the
bible.

If the bible told you to jump off a bridge...

They will come close, but Israel will never be completely
destroyed.

Thanks for the scientific input.

Grandpa h.

[barts]

No Barts, you're probably not suggesting anything that Gandhi or Martin Luther King didn’t use. But your not answering Mr. Mxyzptlk questions either.

I believe they both would have answered questions (from the heart) presented to them about their beliefs about Israel. What I can’t see is you intentionally putting yourself on their level and will chalk it down as an oversight on your part.

Now, to your answers.

TR, I didn't answer Mr. Mxyzptlk's questions in detail for three reasons. The first is that they are entirely rhetorical. If Mr. Mxyzptlk wants to make a point, he should just make it rather than creating a quiz. The second reason is I simply couldn't be bothered to go through them all--call me lazy and not interested. The third reason is that their purpose was to demonstrate some deficiencies in my character which Mr. Mxyzptlk judges that I have, and my moral failings are not the subject of this thread. If Mr. Mxyzptlk wants to start a thread about my character flaws, he should do so.

Was there some particular question that Mr. Mxyzptlk asked that you wanted an answer to?

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Spoken like a true “Camden town Crusty”. I’m not saying that in a derogatory way, just in the sense of “Free Palestine”, “Free Tibet”, “Stop the genocide in Darfur”, End the war in Afghanistan”, “Recycle or Die”, type of writing. It’s this type of meddling that has caused wars to go on longer than they would have.

Neither side in that conflict is right; and by your statements it is clear (ok, smudged) with whom you are siding.

Then maybe it is that both sides appear to be {right?}

So, Why does Palestine “have to defeat Israel”? Your first paragraph states: that Palestinian attacks on Israel only strengthen them….

Because the Palestinians wish to live in and control the land that is under Israel‘s control?

I’m sure that Israel would take the Palestinians referendum at it’s worth, especially since they will agree to obey, without reservation, all Israeli laws. Like you also state: In other words, an end to all conflict, an end to denial of a "Jewish state", and total acquiescence to all Israeli demands.

…which still would not be an end to all conflict. One would think that with the Palestinians “fully” integrated into the society a new form of conflict would take shape?

C’mon Barts, why did you even spend time on this? I just thumped myself for even responding.

Our children’s grandchildren’s children will never see it. Interesting read tho’ Bart’s.

But it is always possible?

[grandpa]

Then maybe it is that both sides appear to
be {right?}
Because the Palestinians wish to live in and control the
land that is under Israel‘s control?

Some do, but more wish to not be silenced, bombed and starved by some oppressive, racist quasi-religious regime.

Grandpa h.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Well considering their primary offensive weapon is a guy who goes into a crowd and yells "Alalalalalalalalalaaa" and then goes BOOM I doubt they've analysed the situation in the rational, strategic manner you have.

Or maybe it is that they’ve just analyzed the situation in their own “rational strategic manner?”

An intriguing idea you have I'll admit, but one they likely wouldn't have interest in.

But why wouldn’t they be interested in using a Trojan Horse? It works does it not?

sounds like a one state solution
One-state solution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

….or a final solution?

I. The Final Solution

II. Final Solution

III. Ian Kershaw and the Final Solution

Israel would not like to have so many non-jews voting in elections

And why is it that they should like to? Why is it that they should embrace such a solution? Why is it that they should embrace a final solution, which is intended to place them in a Position of disadvantage and the eventual loss of their home? Why should they embrace a solution that will lead to their own demise and destruction? Is it that the Israeli citizen should turn into the American citizen?

[GHook93]

Wow your a genius! Liberal minds never seem to amaze!

Maybe why you see the Palestinians hold onto illogical demand of the right of return!

The Palestinians have no hope of achieving their political goals militarily. Indeed, Palestinian attacks on Israel, as innocuous as they are, strengthen Israel as they insure American political support and funding, and Israeli intransigence and hatred.

To defeat Israel, let me suggest that the Palestinians by way of a public referendum renounce not only all of their territorial claims without reservation, but also agree to become citizens or residents of Israel and obey, without reservation, all Israeli laws.

In other words, an end to all conflict, an end to denial of a "Jewish state", and total acquiescence to all Israeli demands.

As peaceful residents of Israel, most of the need for American support would evaporate, and Israel would have to deal with its new residents and possibly citizens as any other democratic country. Within a short period, the Palestinians would gain political, cultural, and economic power and likely even majority status within Israel, without firing a shot or launching a rocket. Palestinians have higher population growth rates than the Israelis do. Currently, there are about 5 million Palestinians in the Israeli controlled areas, and about 6 million Jews.

As the Palestinian's political and economic power increased in Israel, they would gain de facto control over Israel and be able to realize all of their ambitions, including a de facto "Palestinian state" that would be named Israel.

Ironically, this strategy of slow infiltration is similar to how the Jewish community gained control over "Palestine".

In my view, the Israelis have demonstrated since 1967 that they have, in fact, no interest in any peace of any kind with the Palestinians. Israel's leaders have always understood that should peace break out, the above political scenario would become a reality and mark the beginning of the end of the Zionist dream of a Jewish state.

In order to survive as a "Jewish state" rather than a fully democratic and secular one, Israel needs enemies and neverending war.

To defeat the Israelis, all the Palestinians need to do is "surrender" and declare "peace."

Ironically, with the end of a Jewish state, day-to-day life for Israelis would improve and they wouldn't, as they are doing now, feel such a need to emigrate. Ironic, too, is it not that the future of Jews in Eretz Yisrael may depend on Palestinians surrendering unconditionally, and assuming democratic control over Israel as peaceful residents and citizens.

[Nono]

Yeah, in the meantime Israel is looking less and less good to diaspora Jews, and even to a lot of Israelis, who are choosing to live elsewhere.

Sneer all you want, Hook, demographics are not in Israel's favour.

[Diogenes]

How the Palestinians could defeat Israel

We all know they do not have the military power to defeat them, nor the political clout...not even the economic wherewithall...

in fact the only thing they have on their side is the stubbornness to stand in the face of impossible odds and be defiant to the end...

which, I'd like to think, we'd all be under similar circumstances ...and not compliant, docile, and subordinate.

The only way the Palestinians could defeat Israel would be to cater to the heart-strings of humanity...by making a profound statement...whereby the world would have to listen.

Something along the lines of a nation-wide hunger/work strike...a spectacle...gathering together in some large space with candles and bottled water and declaring that their needs will either be addressed or they will die trying...

the world would have to set up...and would.

Yes, it has been tried before, but not organized as a major spectacle...an event...on a nation-wide scale.

To defeat Israel, let me suggest that the Palestinians by way of a public referendum renounce not only all of their territorial claims without reservation, but also agree to become citizens or residents of Israel and obey, without reservation, all Israeli laws.

In other words, an end to all conflict, an end to denial of a "Jewish state", and total acquiescence to all Israeli demands.

I really don't see this as a viable solution...or even a realistic one...and it would simply put Israel into a much stronger position to abuse the Palestinians under the cover of their nation.

Israel could have resolved this situation easily...as I said in other threads...simply by being the good guy...helping the Palestinians to create employment, hospitals, infrastructure, etc...even funding it at cost...
by providing a better life for the Palestinians they would effectively gain their support and eventually the Palestinians would likely opt in to an Israeli State willingly.

It's simple...you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...

if you take a man who lives in a box, jobless, etc....and you give him a home, a job, etc....you essentially give him more to lose....and more to keep...a reason to comply...

the Palestinians have nothing to lose and nothing to keep...no reason to comply.

[grandpa]

We all know they do not have the military power
to defeat them, nor the political clout...
not even the economic wherewithall...

True. I can't say I'm jealous of their present psycho-social-political
situation.

Grandpa h.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Indeed, it is a one state solution. I can see why the Israelis would object because it would be the end of the Zionist dream. For the Palestinians, however, it would over time--less time than since the '67 war--give them everything they ever hoped for.

And again, Mr. Barts, why should the Zionist dream end? Why not the Palestinian dream? Why should the Palestinians be allowed to destroy the Zionist dream and not visa versa? Why should the Palestinians have the right to destroy or kill the people of Israel and the people of Israel have no {right] to destroy or kill the people of Palestine? Is this the type of {equal rights} that you and others love to preach about? And if so, how is it {equal?} How is it {equal} that one should be allowed the {right] to destroy or kill the other and the other should not be allowed the same {right?] Is it that this is how {equal rights} work?

One wonders how the Israelis would respond if the Palestinians unilaterally declared peace and renounced all territorial claims to the land now being occupied by Israel.

And one wonders how the Palestinians would respond if the Israelis unilaterally declared peace and renounced all territorial claims to the land now being occupied by the Palestinians?

In such a situation, the Israeli government would become responsible for the well-being of the Palestinians within their borders as they are for all Israeli residents.

And why can’t the Palestinians have their own state? Why can’t there be two states? Why is it that the Palestinians can’t be responsible for the well-being of Palestinians within their borders?

It's one thing for Israel to slaughter "enemies", but quite another to slaughter, marginalize, or discriminate against peaceful residents because of their ethnicity or religion.

Especially when you have a “peaceful” resident whose only reason for feigning “peaceful” is because they are in the process of implementing a plan that will one day place them in a better Position to slaughter, marginalize, and discriminate against their enemies?

Secondly, you speak as if a “peaceful resident” cannot double as an enemy? Is it that a “peaceful resident” cannot also be an enemy?

But as others have suggested the hatreds are deep and, perhaps, endless conflict is more emotionally appealing. Certainly, for Israel without endless conflict and enemies it couldn't survive, in my view, in its present "Jewish state" incarnation. Peace is fatal to Zionism.

Why ? Why is it that peace is fatal to Zionism?

Secondly, really need to understand your conclusion at this point? If it is that Israel would be unable to survive without endless conflicts, then how is it that “endless conflict” is something that is pursued simply for the fact that it is more “emotionally appealing?” Would it not be pursued out of a need for survival?

Thirdly, again, if it is as you say that Israel could not survive in its present state without “endless conflict,” then would you believe that the same could be said for some other states?

[barts]

Thirdly, again, if it is as you say that Israel could not survive in its present state without “endless conflict,” then would you believe that the same could be said for some other states?

Israel is not just another "state". Israel is a Jewish state, and the culmination of Zionism. Intrinsic to current Jewish culture and cohesiveness is the notion of persecution, and the struggle against it. Absent the notion the endless conflict of Jews struggling against persecution (real, imagined, or feared), the Jewish culture would melt in the larger culture melting pot, in my view. Consequently, even where there is no or very little persecution of Jews, the persecution complex is maintained and fostered.

Ironically, had there been no Holocaust, there would be no Israel and there would have been a broader diaspora. Ironic again, isn't it that one of the Jewish people greatest enemies, Hitler, made possible the realization of some Jews greatest dream, Israel.

[barts]

And why can’t the Palestinians have their own state? Why can’t there be two states? Why is it that the Palestinians can’t be responsible for the well-being of Palestinians within their borders?

Israel won't allow it.