is it a quagmire yet?

[Dieval]

I have seen the light! We were wrong to liberate 25 million people so they can enjoy freedom from an evil dictator! They were doing so well under Saddam, only a fraction of the population died at Saddam(and son's) will...

Down with Bush! Put Saddam back! Down with "Chicken Hawks"!
Down with "King George"! Down with the Evil American Empire!

(Pssst...did I get all the anti-American crap correct?)

[Dieval]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PatrickHenry,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well, a lot of us said don't do it beforehand. Now, US troopers die every day defending what? [/b]

The first (fledgeling)arab democratic state? The first freedom 25 million people have had in 30 years? Come on.

Originally posted by PatrickHenry,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PatrickHenry,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Iraqi pseudodemocracy? A CIA puppet gov in the heart of Arabic territory?[/b]

I'm sure that's all you can see...a "puppet" government, even though we are turning everything over to the Iraqi's who are going to hold REAL elections for once!
<!--QuoteBegin-PatrickHenry,@

US oil supplies? [/quote]Please...
<!--QuoteBegin-PatrickHenry,

Israel, our ally who spies on us and threatens her neighbors with nukes?[/quote]
Maybe we should just wait for Iran to develop nukes so the region will be more stable....Riiiiiiiight...

When did Israel threaten its neighbors with nukes?
I must have missed that.

[bishop]

I have seen the light! We were wrong to liberate 25 million people so they can enjoy freedom from an evil dictator! They were doing so well under Saddam, only a fraction of the population died at Saddam(and son's) will...

who cares about them, particularly from a standpoint of wasting american lives on them? i don't. and from what i see, the iraqis are thanking us for our actions by shooting our guys, bombing them, kidnapping them, etc...

they're here to protect AMERICAN and american values, not to be all things to all people.. didn't bush say that once upon a time?

[tusaki]

Dieval, if you look past the "saddam is evil, glad to get rid of him" (and ofcourse we are, I am) and look at the current situation. Regardless if you are a republican or democrat or whatever. If you look objectively at the situation you will find it is not going too well. And no, the US is not to blame, the entire country from the beginning was unstable and held in check by Saddam and other dictators through their ruthless methods. What is the solution? if you move out, it falls apart. if you don't move out, it will probably fall apart too or it will bend but not crack, except that you will have a few thousand more iraqies dead and probably a few hundred more US soldiers dead before it is 'stable' (and again, I doubt a country which such a diverse population and such ancient hatreds can ever truly be stable).

I don't think pulling out is an option. In my opinion, the only way to guarantee safety and 'success' is to get the other middle-eastern nations involved. And I mean completely. Let them form a "peacekeeping" force. and no wishy washy ethics and morals either. That's not what the country needs right now. They need to handle the situation using their own methods. Arabs in, Westerners out. The only problem then could be an escalation of the Shoeni-Shiitte vendetta (providing both Iran and Saudi-Arabia supply troops) although they seem to be united in the goal of hurting the US troops and the Iraqi police now.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by tusaki, Dieval, if you look past the "saddam is evil, glad to get rid of him" (and ofcourse we are, I am) and look at the current situation. Regardless if you are a republican or democrat or whatever. If you look objectively at the situation you will find it is not going too well. And no, the US is not to blame, the entire country from the beginning was unstable and held in check by Saddam and other dictators through their ruthless methods. What is the solution? if you move out, it falls apart. if you don't move out, it will probably fall apart too or it will bend but not crack, except that you will have a few thousand more iraqies dead and probably a few hundred more US soldiers dead before it is 'stable' (and again, I doubt a country which such a diverse population and such ancient hatreds can ever truly be stable). I don't think pulling out is an option. In my opinion, the only way to guarantee safety and 'success' is to get the other middle-eastern nations involved. And I mean completely. Let them form a "peacekeeping" force. and no wishy washy ethics and morals either. That's not what the country needs right now. They need to handle the situation using their own methods. Arabs in, Westerners out. The only problem then could be an escalation of the Shoeni-Shiitte vendetta (providing both Iran and Saudi-Arabia supply troops) although they seem to be united in the goal of hurting the US troops and the Iraqi police now.

I'm glad that someone finally had a constructive post with an actual idea of how things should be done(besides pulling out right now) and is not just bitching and moaning about us being there, people dieing durring a war, king george, etc, etc, etc....

Personally, I believe that we should show less restraint when dealing with the insurgents(al-sadr and such) and terrorists....if they run into "holiest mosque in the middle east #7" then that mosque becomes a target(eventually becoming "Holiest ruins in the middle east #1", etc). That does become a tricky situation as they could see that as another play for power - like Saddam would do - but as long as we stay true to our word, make sure they achieve true democratic elections, freedoms, etc, I think they'll be ok.

You have a decent idea about getting an arab force to come in and keep the peace, but I don't believe that there are too many arab countries that actually want us to succeed in bring democracy to the area. So, we probably won't find too many that are willing to help.

[tusaki]

I don't think blasting their mosques is a good idea. Regardless if the terrorists use that as a hideout and 'safehouse'. I'me quite sure the only thing that will accomplish is exactly what the terrorists want: more hatred among the general population towards the occupation force and the US. It is an achilles heel and they know it. I dont have a solution for this... perhaps highly trained commando's?

Regarding the other arab states... You are correct, perhaps they don't want to see us succeed. But I think they can be bribed *cough* I mean negotiated into helping. Surely something they want wouldn't be as costly as keeping an armed force up and running.

[bishop]

I don't think pulling out is an option. In my opinion, the only way to guarantee safety and 'success' is to get the other middle-eastern nations involved. And I mean completely. Let them form a "peacekeeping" force. and no wishy washy ethics and morals either.

we had the opportunity to do that once... both pakistan and india (and egypt if i'm not mistaken) were prepared to participate in such an effort only if we could get u.n. approval for such a force (especially since the war itself was not legal). at this time, there was also the big debate over iraqi reconstruction contracts, and bush refused to budge - thereby shooting that prospect dead.

only one of the two candidates has talked about convening a regional meeting to discuss the issue of iraq. dieval, can you guess which candidate has done such a thing?

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop, were prepared to participate in such an effort only if we could get u.n. approval for such a force

Lets give a big warm "Thank You" to France for fucking up any chance we had of getting UN approval...

[tusaki]

Bishop, although I agree with you: discussing here tonight made me wonder... such little stabs like "dieval, can you guess which candidate has done such a thing?" although relatively harmless... they do contribute to the overall 'us vs them' feeling. sigh.. I suppose it's "politics"... and ofcourse "they" are doing the same. But I'm trying to figure out a way to stop this nonsense.

"and at our dinner table there shall be no talking about religion NOR politics, now enjoy your meal" my mother said to me. And she was right.

[tusaki]

Dieval: And russia, and china.

But that was about the starting war in the first place. What bishop was talking about is getting a "relief" force of other nations (instead of the US) through the UN. This happened after the US was already in iraq.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by tusaki, Dieval: And russia, and china.

I know they weren't happy with the situation, but I don't remember if they were screaming "Veto" as loud as France was...I think if it came down to it, they might abstain rather than veto. France was going to veto regardless.

[RickSp]

(Pssst...did I get all the anti-American crap correct?)

So if you aren't parroting King George's lies, you are anti-American? Is that it? How pathetic. You sound like a true Patriot at least as defined by Mark Twain. "Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about."

The US is losing the war in Iraq and has no hope whatsoever of winning. The US hasn't liberated anyone. It is occupying a country who occupants don't want to be occupied. Guess since you are in the same delusional bubble as King George, you haven't noticed. And more fine American soldiers keep dying and more Iraqi civilians are slaughtered.

[tusaki]

They don't want to be occupied but they don't want to live under a dictatorship either. And it's here now. Bitching about it wont help them, nor your precious soldiers. I'm saying this so rashly because, yes, it was a 'wrong' war. But it has its merits. If it was up to me there are a couple of other regimes I would like to see changed. It's just a damn pain in the ass to do properly, if there is even such a thing. Now that we are at this point in time, with this situation, how do we solve it as gracefully as possible?

[bishop]

Lets give a big warm "Thank You" to France for fucking up any chance we had of getting UN approval...

why couldn't we have waited a couple extra months - which was what the frenchies were pushing for? what, exactly, would we have lost by making such a seemingly valuable comprimise? and who knows.. maybe if we actually found some vindication in the form of wmd's, maybe then our prospects of winning support would've been better. unfortunately, the cases where the administration handled diplomacy in a disasterous way far outweighs any unscrupulous behavior by the french.

Bishop, although I agree with you: discussing here tonight made me wonder... such little stabs like "dieval, can you guess which candidate has done such a thing?" although relatively harmless... they do contribute to the overall 'us vs them' feeling. sigh.. I suppose it's "politics"... and ofcourse "they" are doing the same. But I'm trying to figure out a way to stop this nonsense.

i've come to the dismal conclusion that particularly with the neocons, such harmony is impossible. unfortunately, i've come to view these types of people as being frighteningly close to nazis - with their outspoken prejudice against muslims/arabs in general, their strong pronouncement of what they call "traditional family values", etc.. when it comes to a whole host of different topics, i'm appalled at their tendency to mudsling, give excuses or simply ignore bush's faults. incidentally, when does bush admit his own faults, aside from those goofy comedy dinners?

[RickSp]

If it was up to me there are a couple of other regimes I would like to see changed. It's just a damn pain in the ass to do properly, if there is even such a thing. Now that we are at this point in time, with this situation, how do we solve it as gracefully as possible?

Thank god it isn't up to you.

Did it ever occur to you that we don't have the right to invade other people's countries, slaughtering thousands of civilians, destroying anything and everything that gets in our way, in order to shove our view of democracy down their throats? I think anyone who holds such a view doesn't have a clue as to the nature of democracy anyway. It can't be delivered by tanks or JDAMs. Freedom through coercion doesn't work.

Now that we have gotten into this horror show we should cut our losses and the Iraqis, invite the UN peacekeepers in and get out. In Iraq we are not the solution, we are the problem.

[RickSp]

Lets give a big warm "Thank You" to France for fucking up any chance we had of getting UN approval...

You may not have noticed, but the Frenchies got it right. Saddam was no immediate threat. No WMD stockpiles. No Al Queda ties.

Oh yah, I know. Saddam is a bad man. Not so bad that Rumsfeld didn't deliver US helicopters to him then run interference when he used them to drop gas bombs on the Kurds. No so bad that Dick Cheney didn't do business with him at Haliburtan, embargo or no embargo. Saddam is evil, but these guys were his partners in crime.

So say thank you to the French. This time they got it right. Chew on that with your freedom fries.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by RickSp, So if you aren't parroting King George's lies, you are anti-American? Is that it? How pathetic. You sound like a true Patriot at least as defined by Mark Twain. "Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about." The US is losing the war in Iraq and has no hope whatsoever of winning. The US hasn't liberated anyone. It is occupying a country who occupants don't want to be occupied. Guess since you are in the same delusional bubble as King George, you haven't noticed. And more fine American soldiers keep dying and more Iraqi civilians are slaughtered.

You're America-hating, defeatest attitude, and blatent lies serves no useful purpose at all. It doesn't help the morale of this country. It doesn't help the morale of the troops. It doesn't help ANYTHING at all.

[Dieval]

Originally posted by bishop, why couldn't we have waited a couple extra months - which was what the frenchies were pushing for?

We waited 12+ years....why should we wait a few more months?

[bishop]

heh, but seeing/hearing/speaking no evil works wonders! :)

everything's just peachy, just like king bush says. believe anything else, like the fact that more people like al-sadr than our guys, and you're some wimpy america-hating hippie.. nice logic.

[bishop]

We waited 12+ years....why should we wait a few more months?

what did we have to lose???

were you so hungry for war that you just couldn't wait?