Navy Challenging Kerry's Medals

Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff
Thursday, Sept. 2, 2004 12:08 a.m. EDT
Navy Challenging Kerry's Medals

The United States Navy is challenging the authenticity of Sen. John Kerry's Vietnam War medals, in a development that could prove to be the most damaging yet to the embattled Democrat's presidential campaign.

A Navy spokesman is calling Kerry's Silver Star citation with Combat V "incorrect" as it appears on his campaign Web site, explaining in an interview with Chicago Sun-Times reporter Thomas Lipscomb that the Navy has never issued a Combat V at any time for the Silver Star.
The Navy also is questioning the listing on Kerry’s Web site of four bronze campaign stars for his service in Vietnam. The official naval record credits Kerry with just two Vietnam campaigns.
"That is sufficient for the wearing of the Vietnam Service Medal for one campaign bearing one campaign star for the additional campaign - not four," reports Lipscomb in today's New York Sun.
Kerry's campaign has repeatedly cited the Navy as the ultimate authority on the candidate's war record, saying the Navy wouldn't have awarded him medals he didn't deserve.
But with the Navy now publicly challenging Kerry's decorations, that defense has been rendered inoperative.
Noting that Kerry has refused to authorize the release of his full military records, the legal watchdog group Judicial Watch called on Kerry this week to remove any questionable citations from his Web site pending a formal investigation by the Navy.
"It is to your best interest to have your record in good order," Gen. Thomas Wilkerson, the president of the U.S. Naval Institute, told Lipscomb. "If it is wrong, you are accountable. And if you use it to advance your career, it is even more important.”
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BEFORE YOU RESPOND TO MY TOPIC TRULY INVESTIGATE THE TOPIC I don't want to hear your partisan BS. I am very liberal, but I also like to look at the actual situations at hand.

Thanks...

[bishop]

*sigh*

no offense, but the whole vietnam topic is beyond dead.. it's rotten puree..

the medals don't negate the more important fact that kerry VOLUNTEERED to go to vietnam while bush chose to campaign instead. in the shitstorm that the vietnam "issue" has been, those two points have never been refuted. one chose to sacrifice his life for his country, the other for his political party.

Originally posted by bishop, *sigh* no offense, but the whole vietnam topic is beyond dead..

Apprently not for the Navy...

Also, if it's about what Kerry has done recently why won't he talk about his senate record? As a democrat I see this as a weakness.

If this topic is "beyond dead" please just stay out of it. I'm interested in this, and the news is talking about it.

[Technosoul]

More hogwash and transparently partisan.

Everyone knows the Navy is looking foreward to greater funding from Bush. Due to his world wide war plans (yet to be fully announced).

Get real, Kerry did not reward his self. He did not go to some pawn shop and buy them. He did not shoot his self in the leg to get a award and pretend it came from enemy fire. No, someone higher up just awarded them to him, he did not beg for them.

Navy questions his right to those medals at this late date, in the middle of an election? Get real, who do you think the Commander and Cheif of the Navy is right now? And who is following orders?

Technosoul.

[bishop]

you posted it on a public message board - one that gets a new vietnam related thread almost every other day. i'll respond if i want to. i did, after all, substantiate my comments.

I'm well aware that this is a public forum, but it's common courtesy to avoid topics that don't interest you rather than just dismiss them.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Technosoul, More hogwash and transparently partisan. Everyone knows the Navy is looking foreward to greater funding from Bush.  Due to his world wide war plans (yet to be fully announced). Get real, Kerry did not reward his self.  He did not go to some pawn shop and buy them.  He did not shoot his self in the leg to get a award and pretend it came from enemy fire.  No, someone higher up just awarded them to him, he did not beg for them.  Navy questions his right to those medals at this late date, in the middle of an election?  Get real, who do you think the Commander and Cheif of the Navy is right now?  And who is following orders?  Technosoul.

Tech, we don't often agree but this time I think you are dead on the money. Kerry was awarded those medals by the Navy and ordinarily that would simply stand. I wonder how many medal awardees who are NOT presidential candidates are having their right to their medals questioned? What is the Navy basing this change of heart on? The Swift Boat attackers, and their third hand accounts of what FIRST hand participants disagree with.
If this is politically motivated, as it appears to be at this time, then the whole thing is quite disturbing.
Maybe the next time I say I support the military I'll have to qualify it by adding "below the rank of Lieutenant".

P.S. I couldn't find that particular story on the newsmax site, but I did come away with the feeling this is a right wing site. Right or left, I always bring my salt shaker along when I read these stories.

[RickSp]

The news cycle has run out on the CBS foolishness and Karl Rove or one of his minions is trying to cook up another distraction that will have the Kerry camp chasing their collective tails for another week.

Kerry has himself to blame. Rather than come out and forthrightly attack Bush for getting us into a needless war, he went out of his way to highlight four months of his life 35 years ago. Perfect set-up for Rove's attack dogs.

[tman_ndsu08]

Why would you even care if your president fought in a war or not?

I would think people would pay attention to his ideas on issues and not media pushed bs.

[Bob]

KERRY IS BEYOND BELIEF...

I'm a Conservative Believer, just so everyone knows where I am coming from, and to me John Kerry takes the cake. However I'm happy because his defects make my man the winner in a landslide, which is occurring before your eyes.

I can't imagine any Democrat being so partisan that in the secret darkness of the voting booth he would turn his country over to the likes of John Kerry. I also can't imagine why the Democrat party with millions of people to choose from would choose such a flawed man to represent them, unless, and indeed, they are that flawed themselves as a whole, which I would hate to think was true.

All that said, all you have to do is be able to add to figure this puzzle out. You just add all his lies, distortion, exaggerations, frauds, doctoring of records, conflicting stories, and the constant drip of more of the same every day, and you can figure out what is going on here. Just as Clinton was a serial fornicator, Kerry is a serial liar. Clinton's list of fornications, rapes and adulteries, is beyond any counting. Likewise we will never reach the bottom of the barrel of Kerry's lies. It is pathological with him, such that he, like Clinton, doesn't believe he does anything wrong. Lets look at a very few of these lies:

He gave speeches against the war all during his college years using nearly the same language against the war he used after he came home. Then, when he graduated and had used up his college deferments, he asked for yet another deferment to avoid VN, this time to go to Paris to school. (Is he American or French?) His draft board turned him down flat for this additional deferment, (and he has the nerve to criticize Cheny's college deferments as cowardice) and then, and only then, when he was faced with immediate draft, he ran down as fast as he could go and quickly enlisted. Not for any reason other than to avoid being drafted when his desperate attempts to get additional deferments fell through. OK, so much for that. PS: How could an honorable man enlist in a war he repeatedly condemned, before he went, as a war crime. What kind of morality allows one to act like that?

Then, when he knew he would have to go to VN, he managed to pick the safest, most easy duty possible, on a picket ship far offshore from any fighting. OK, now krrp in mind you this boy has repeatedly said he wanted to make it to the presidency since he was a teenager. He was on fire with this ambition all his life. So, when he did his stint on the picket ship, and returned, he felt something was not going well in his campaign for the presidency. His little cruise offshore with no action was not going to get him elected as a hero like his hero JFK. So he gritted his anti-war and cowardly teeth and bit the bullet and volunteered to be trained on the, now famous, Swift Boats. He really was fishing for a PT boat like JFK, but the closest the Navy had was these Swift Boats. He took it, and went back to VN. This time he took his typewriter and a video camera with the full intention of somehow becoming, or appear as, a hero, and get it all down on film, hopefully without getting killed. IMO he is a coward through and through as I analyze his conduct during the war. He faked three wounds and then used an almost never used loophole to desert his men and flee back to the safety of the States after serving a bare three months of active duty.

OK, he joins this Swift Squadron. Now these boats are tiny, carrying only 3 or 4 men or so, and so the whole squadron of a dozen boats or so sleep in one bunk house. The 25 Commanders sleep in a bunk house and all the men sleep together as well. The point I am making is this whole bunch were like one crew, not separate crews. The slept and ate together and all of them knew each other personally. The total of all these men was about 250 men, almost all of whom hate him and despise him. Not only that, these boats never went anywhere alone. They went in a flock of 3, 4 or more. They sailed just feet from each other and could see every damn thing that went on aboard the other boats like they were there. In fact they could see better what another boat was doing and what the men on that boat were doing than the men on that boat itself. They had a top Commander of them all, who assigned men from boat to boat as a free floating work force. Thus Kerry's boat was not this little world unto itself in any way.

Therefore, all arguments the have as a premise that the other Captains and crews did not know what each other did is all bull.

Concerning medals: Since the dawn of history it has been a tradition among fighting men that real men don't claim a medal for a scratch, that isn't a real wound. Real men will turn down a purple heart if it is for a scratch, even if it is offered. Kerry turned over heaven and earth, and broke every rule and lied to get his purple hearts, such as they were. He got three purple hearts for three scratches. This is dishonorable and shameful and disgraces the whole nation, plus it is an insult to the men who really earned their purple hearts with the loss of a leg or arm. On this ground alone the man is a fraud, a scoundrel, a cheat, and a soldier with no honor.

But there is more, much, much more: More than I can ever detail here:

He threw his medals in a garbage can, over the White House fence and into his Commander in Chief's face. This alone disqualifies him from ever being President. But that is not all. He now has the guts to dig out those same medals from the garbage can where he threw them, and pin them on his deceitful breast and say, "Elect me President on the basis that I have won all these wonderful medals." Shame, does he have no shame? The answer is he does not have any shame.

His flip-flops since are in the hundreds. There is so much dirt where this man is concerned that people get burned out on his dirt, like they got burned out on Clinton's perverted sex life. There is no end to this man's perfidy.

Off subject, but part of the profile: He marries this horribly ugly woman, 5 years older than himself, who has all this obscene money, and the ugliest kids in the world, and can't even speak English, and doesn't have a civil tongue in her head. She alone is a walking disgrace to this country.

On top of all this he is the most annoying, unattractive man to ever seek the Presidency. I would hate him if he were a Republican. He comes across as a snobbish elitist who looks down his nose at the proletariat, and sniffs at the hoi polloi. He talks down to people.....

All his other medals are total frauds. For example we had an honorable general who committed suicide because he cheated a bit and wore a V for valor on a medal that he shouldn't have. Kerry's web site shows a Silver Star with a V for valor on it that is totally fictitious. No V for valor is ever awarded to go with a silver star. Yet it is right there on his web site. The Navy is investigating it now. It is not any one of these things, just as it was not any one of Clinton's sins; it is when there are hundreds of them that a pattern emerges that cannot be denied. And no clerk is responsible for the V for valor fraud. It is every soldiers responsibility to check his own DD 214 and correct any errors on it. It is not the Navy or anyone else this can be shifted to. So, forget that phony defense.

To repeat, I am happy the Democrats are committing suicide with this jerk, because it is going to hurt them all down the ticket right to the court house door. It is what they deserve being a notorious party of infamy. So I love it, but I just can't help rubbing it in the nose's of Democrats.

For one thing the Democrat Party is where a steady stream of Republicans come from, as converted Democrats. Notice, no one ever goes from being a Republican to being a Democrat, leastways I can't recall any. But millions go from being a Democrat to being a Republican, just as soon as they wise up.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by RickSp, The news cycle has run out on the CBS foolishness and Karl Rove or one of his minions is trying to cook up another distraction that will have the Kerry camp chasing their collective tails for another week. Kerry has himself to blame. Rather than come out and forthrightly attack Bush for getting us into a needless war, he went out of his way to highlight four months of his life 35 years ago. Perfect set-up for Rove's attack dogs.

For one thing his (Kerry) military record outshines Bush's and so he saw that as an advantage. He knew Bush's record was not so hot and somehow came up missing in action of filing or paper shuffling. He did not expect the Bush team to stoop so low as to toss mud on some vet who served in Nam, he thought people would support the troops, those in the past as they do today. The Bush team is starting to sound like Jane Fonda with all their vet bashing.

Things could get worse, in another term he could bring Ollie North back to the White House, how low can they go, only if Bush wins will we know.

Technosoul.

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by dotComa, Navy Challenging Kerry's Medals

Before replying to the issue raised in this thread, we need to get the following data :
- official Navy reports
- offcial Navy reports' "authors"

Since we have none avalable, we may speculate only.
As of now, no one has ever submited any documents with concern to events that took place in that time in Vietnam involving Kerry's part, to public.

Personally, I think Kerry made "some extra adjustments" in his reports, especially since the medals were granted based on his (Kerry's) reports.
However, that is my speculation and I do not much care Kerry's medals. As it use to be, those who realy deserve to be honored receive "nothing".

[Technosoul]

So you think Kerry was trying to take all the glory and not let let the lower grunts have any medals?

Come on a war is not a sporting event to see who can win the best prize. He was also promoted in rank a few times before he became an officer, now I guess you think that was also a misstake? We should have stepped aside and said "let someone be officer".

Next think I know Rainbow, you will want him to say "sorry folks, I cannot accept being President, give the glory to that little grunt Bush fellow".

You would honestly place your vote next election based on some idea that he got a medal and the Navy did not give them to everyone?

Wait, news flash, we are not voting on the best Action War Hero, we are voting on who would be a good President because they got a few brains.

Technosoul.

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by Technosoul, So you think Kerry was trying to take all the glory and not let let the lower grunts have any medals? Wait, news flash, we are not voting on the best Action War Hero, we are voting on who would be a good President because they got a few brains.

#1
As I wrote : "I do not care Kerry's medals"
#2
If I vote for a presidential candidate, then I would choose : Bush.
Many people are completely unaware, that we all (around the world) are facing energy crisis, and sooner or later we all all would fight for the oil, since that oil is the main source for the energy.

Computers - like the Watts' invention, steam machine - have entered a new era in Mankind's history. There are not enough new technologies people can create or develope to give all the people an employment. We need to make a shift (as it happened to a steam machine, along with new developements) into completely new technological fields. No one has an idea how to procede with that issue.

Example :
- no technologies to feed all the people

That is why Bush used U.N. Resolution #1441 to enter Iraq (among many other reasons), to "protect" steady oil supplies.
(I am curious whether it has come as the result of any planning, but the oil is not that important as markets or intelligence and military bases in Middle-East region)

Some people say about "peace, rights, constitutions, ect." These values are not going to replace a reality, while exactly those people who write some "pacifistic ideas" will be hit (by energy and technology lacks) as well. But they do not care, today. A completely moronish approach. (I bet those people will blame everybody, but themselves, when they wake up tomorrow and "develope" the reality that surrounds them).

That is why the attempt to enforce a pro-democratic state in Iraq is the crucial task, for almost all the Mannkind's representatives. That is why if I vote, I would choose : Bush (regardless of his capabilities in any field).

[Mr.Vicchio]

The Navy Generally doesn't look into a persons "medal record" unless there is an obvious flaw in said record. When a person USES that record to further ones career most often publicly, then there is grounds for going back and rechecking the situation.

Its NOT all that hard, to fake the paperwork to get things one did not earn. It happens all the time. Sometimes a person makes a mistake, thinks they were awarded X ribbon or medal, but weren't (My whole ship went out and bought a ribbon we were unit wise told we had been awarded, only to find out we hadn't) so we were bummed only to later get eh ribbon AFTER all...

So saying "the Navy awarded it so its legit" is a naive statement to say the least. Were that statement to be accurate, then Kerry could not, WOULD not have a Combat "V" listed with his silver star... the Navy has NEVER given a "V" with the Silver Star. Its illegal, redunandt and doesn't work like that.

Look for all of you "sick of Veitnam" go blame John F. "I'm reporting for duty" Kerry for keeping the campaign in the past. He mentions Veitnam every stop he makes, he made it the central theme of his acceptance speech... he allowed the SBVFT to go too long unanswered, and has refused to release all his records. Its a quagmire of his own making. So go blame him, because THATS where the blame lies. Want more proof, did you catch his mid night post RNC rally speech? What was the headline that came from that? Kerry attacks Cheney on VEITNAM.

What is the DNC focused on this week? "Operation Fortunate Son" Trying to paint Bush as AWOL.

Whats in the Media? 4 memo's from the 70's that are almost without a doubt, forged, claiming Bush was AWOL but that AWOL angle is mirein the subsequent flap and CBS's pathetic repsonse. I DO find it odd the monday AFTER that initial story aired the DNC launched its "OFS" Bs....

So whose talking about 'Nam?

And Kerry wonders why his poll numbers aren't painting a very pretty picture.

[westcoastdog]

Let's look at the facts. Bush was born privileged and he used this privilege, like so many others, to avoid combat in Vietnam. For the last two years of his NG service, there is a dearth of evidence, both in Alabama and Massachusetts. For the first 20+ years of his adult life he was an alcoholic and probably only read the sports pages for his enlightenment. His oil ventures, which were financed significantly by the Saudis (who had a relationship with his father) were a bust. His privilege allowed him to get involved in baseball and his investment in the Rangers became highly profitable after a new stadium was built using public funds.

Bush's two terms as governor were mediocre. Texas shared in the general prosperity of the nation; its performance was unremarkable. Also in Texas, the governor has significantly fewer responsibilities than the governorships of other states like California. Interestingly, he never made one visit to the Houston Space Center. This is a man who wants the U.S. to spend scores of billions to send a man to mars.

As president, Bush has 1) made the rich richer with tax breaks on income, capital gains, dividends, and estates; 2) committed the U.S. to another Vietnam type war, a war condemned by most of our traditional allies, i.e. Canada and Mexico; 3) and made the federal surplus transmogrify into an unprecedented deficit, while ignoring the tremendous burdens of Social Security and Medicare looming on the near horizon.

More facts. The two front war has depleted the capabilities of our armed forces. Ben Laden roams free, and there is no security in Iraq, where the situation appears to be getting worse. It's sad and worrisome that national guard personnel are required to serve up to 15 months in Iraq or Afghanistan (the Vietnam tour was one year). Forget about the talk about invading Iran, the U.S. does not have the manpower for a third front. The Iraq war has only the most tenuous relationship with the war on terror, and the billions squandered there has taken funds from local law enforcement.

Although I lived for more than a half century, I can't remember when the U.S. has been more isolated from the rest of the world. Terrorism is international and requires close cooperation with the rest of the world, cooperation based on trust and respect. Bush's unilateral approach assumes that the U.S. can do it all. We shall see.

The wealthy have benefited enormously from the Bush administration, and their children will never, never serve in Afghanistan or Iraq. And if his economic policies prove disastrous, their affluence will shelter them from the financial ravages that the rest of us will have to suffer. The rich don't need Social Security or Medicare.

Bush critics like myself are predicting that Iraq was a costly mistake and that Bush's economic policies are a recipe for disaster. If Bush is re-elected and our predictions come true, at least we won't have the guilt of making the biggest mistake of our lives.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Your first mistake is calling personal opinions and childish comments "facts" at that point I ignored everything you said, its not worht my time to read the rantings of a person who cannot distinguish personal hate from facts.

[Sonart]

And your mistake is believing anything this administration says.

Fact -- Iraq's insurgency appears to take the upper hand

Fact -- Taliban on the rise in Afghanistan

CIA Spy: We're Losing Terror War

[westcoastdog]

What I posted is public knowledge, and I try to minimize my opinions. If you read my posting, you might have noted that I refrained from epithets as much as possible. I concede that Bush must have read more than the sports pages, but it's accepted by his associates that curiosity is not one of his notable traits. Also, my post dealt mainly with Bush's policies than his biography.

Mr. Vicchio, you apparently have little knowledge about the president. What fact(s) are erroneous? "Ranting?" Your post is a good example. I thought my post was cool analysis.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Its going to be a hard day on 03Nov04 for the vast majority of this forum. Its gonna be fun to watch.