Society of Friends (Quakers)

[Sodfather]

Most who've had the privelege to study colonial Pennsylvania and the Quakers in high school or college find themselves looking up to this utopian experiment with admiration, and feeling melancholy that it failed.

This strikes me as interesting since Quaker society seemed to me to embody strong socialist principles--and most self-opinionated Americans shun anything related to the word "socialism." It featured a strong emphasis on corporate (communal) responsibilty as opposed to a capitalistic hoard-for-self mindset, and prominently featured forms of wealth redistribution such as a mutual aid philosophy and the Walnut Street Alms House which required donations to help less wealthy members in times of need. Also, acquisition of excess wealth was shunned and held suspect to criticism, albeit wealth was favorable in Quaker society.

All of these principles of equaling the social and economic playing field are shouting socialism at me. Even the end result of the Philadelphian Quaker society--an inevitable downfall--fits the socialist bill.

Why do you think many people fail to see socialism in Quaker society? Are they mislead into viewing the socialist principles as rather divine religious law on account of the Quakers subscription to Christianity?

[Nono]

Originally posted by Sodfather Why do you think many people fail to see socialism in Quaker society? Are they mislead into viewing the socialist principles as rather divine religious law on account of the Quakers subscription to Christianity?

I think people fail to equate Quakerism with socialism because people (I'm talking North America) are programmed to regard "socialism" as a four-letter word. Recognizing the socialism in Quakerism would cause their hair to stand on end and sparks to issue from their fingertips.

Yet huge numbers of these same people are always sounding off about "Jesus". Well, Jesus is the guy who threw the money-changers out of the temple and laid down the Golden Rule.

Quaker socialism derived -- and derives: there are still practising Quakers around --directly from their reading of the scriptures.

The key word here, of course, is "practising". After all, Evil Dick Nixon himself came from a nominally Quaker family.

[Technosoul]

One thing is that the Quakers believed in hard work which is what made their type of system workable, and they still have communities in effect.

Mormons also have a lot of socialism in their coumminity, now about the size of a state.

In other words if you work hard because it is part of your religious belief to do so then you do not need to be motivated in a capitalist manner. If your belief system is not centered on materialism then your hard work can generate a lot of extra cash or food supply to store away to help someone out if he gets sick or if his farm is flooded out, etc.

Although the Mormons have a few missions most of the sharing (socialism) is kept inside their own membership.

Sometimes we even re-name socialism and call it something else like health and auto insurance.

Even in pure capitalism you must create your own personal budget that is a form of socialism. You work and make money but instead of spending all your money on materialistic things you save some away for a rainy day, something to fall back on if you get sick or too old to continue working. So when you are young you save enough so you can help your poor self when you get old or handicaped. That would be personal socialism which is simular to colletive socialism.

[Scribbler1]

Pennsylvania is right next door to me so I get a little more news about them than some. I have gotten to where I believe their relative isolationism has been their main strength, as when you don't interact with the outside world you are tougher to assimilate and your society remains intact. But that's changing. A couple of years ago there was a big Cocaine bust and two guys named Stoltzfus (unrelated) were busted for a sizeable quantity of the stuff as they were caught dealing it. It appears to me the door has been cracked.

Ahh, progress.

[RickSp]

Quakers in the colonies and early republic were great entrepreneurs and traders. A number of successful New England sea captains were Quakers.

In many religions, there are definately collectivist elements and often in small religious groups, such as monastic communities, socialism can come close to working (perhaps the only place where it does.) What might have been the case in the Friends Meeting might not been applied with the same zeal in the world at large.

[Bob]

QUAKERS UGH!

I approach everything from my world view, (everyone does this, but I admit it, most others don't) and that view is that there has always been good and evil among humans, neatly divided. This is true regardless of your religion or lack of it. Lincoln said there is good in every man, but the obvious implication is that there is evil in every man also, and in wildly different proportions.

Differentiating this evil should be our chief goal in life. Cain was evil, Abel was good, and coming on down from there we get to the Quakers. My view is they are an evil religion through and through, and have no business being citizens of this country at all.

They will not fight to defend our country, and so have no right to be here, pure and simple. On top of that they have undermined our war effort in every war we have ever fought. They were the main instigators and inciters of the draft dodgers who fled to Canada. They not only ruined these boys’ lives but harmed this country. I have absolutely no respect for them in any way shape or form.

As to their supposed hard work, hard work qualifies a person for exactly nothing. We are all supposed to be hard workers, so hard work counts not at all.

As for their supposed Christian religion, it's a laugh. They distort the Bible completely. Not one word is said in the Bible about not fighting for your country. Thou shalt not kill, means clearly in the Hebrew, Thou shalt not murder your brother, and nothing else whatsoever. The Bible commands you to fight for your country hundreds of times, and orders capital punishment hundreds of times. Anyone who is against capital punishment is against the Bible no matter who he is.

They hired people to kill Indians for them so they wouldn't be killed by the Indians. The way they got here was this country was starved for immigrants in the beginning and they were handy and so the founders reluctantly allowed them to come here. They are a demonic German sect, a bastardized distortion of the Reformation.

As to their Socialism, they are Communists through and through, and that itself is un-American.

As for Nixon being a Quaker, his mother was one, and it served him very badly. All his failing can be traced to that poison.

Now there you have it.

[tman_ndsu08]

Why do you think many people fail to see socialism in Quaker society? Are they mislead into viewing the socialist principles as rather divine religious law on account of the Quakers subscription to Christianity?

Why would many people be looking for socialism in Quaker society? Since Quaker society failed, why would they want to duplicate that?

I'm not sure that the Quaker society is socialism but rahter communist. I don't see any large central government that owns the means of production.

[Compugasm]

Aw, come on. Don't be a Quaker hater.

[Compugasm]

The Instant oats are actually pretty good. Besides, we can just take their land anytime we want. What they gonna do bout it? Yeah, thought so bitch. Sit your butter churning ass down on that chair you made, by hand.

[Sodfather]

Cite some sources, Bob: your post reaks heavily of bullshit to me.

Why? First of all, the Quakers did not hail from Germany and were not comprised of Germans. They were founded and existed in England until Pennsylvania was chartered to William Penn. How you arrived at your conclusion is beyond reason.

Also, the Quakers were not reluctantly allowed into Pennsylvania: they were virtually shoved into it as they were unwelcome in England (monarchies for ya).

Bob, answer me this: do you like Benjamin Franklin? I bet you do. Everyone does. However, Benny was very similar to the Quakers: he stresses industry and frugality in The Way to Wealth, and I don't doubt that he agreed with the Quakers that wealth gained by these processes and not by greed or an acquisitive spirit was "living in the light of God"--that is, honorable and a tell-tale sign of one living a moral life.

And as for pacifism, that's hardly a reason to hone in on the Quakers like you've done. If they don't believe in slaughtering other men, albeit men whose land their country has seized and trampled upon (id est, the Native Americans and Viet Namese), who besides a lunatic could blame them?

[Compugasm]

Not to be off topic, but I heard Franklin was a jerk in real life. Cokie Roberts wrote a book about "Founding Mothers" or something like that a few months ago. SHe was intereviewed on a radio show and she had some funny stories about what a cheapskate he was. We only like him cause he's dead, and weren't married to him.

[Sodfather]

Originally posted by Compugasm, Not to be off topic, but I heard Franklin was a jerk in real life. Cokie Roberts wrote a book about "Founding Mothers" or something like that a few months ago. SHe was intereviewed on a radio show and she had some funny stories about what a cheapskate he was. We only like him cause he's dead, and weren't married to him.

Ha, you heard true. He really was a smart ass, and, as obviously not many people know, thought of France as "the center of civilization" as opposed to the States when he lived in paris, I believe, for 25 of his 33 last years on Earth. Little disrespectful for a founding father, huh?

[Compugasm]

He was outsourced.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Bob,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bob,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Quakers. My view is they are an evil religion through and through, and have no business being citizens of this country at all. [/b]

That's sort of the way I feel about opinionated decitizenizers like you, Bobby... But the founder of Pennsylvania was an English Quaker, so they sorta go back to the beginning of the country.

Originally posted by Bob,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bob,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They will not fight to defend our country, and so have no right to be here, pure and simple. On top of that they have undermined our war effort in every war we have ever fought.[/b]

Only fighters are worthy huh? I guess that lets the current crew in the Administration out, then...

Originally posted by Bob, They were the main instigators and inciters of the draft dodgers who fled to Canada. They not only ruined these boys’ lives but harmed this country. I have absolutely no respect for them in any way shape or form.

Source for this allegation? Or your opinion?

Originally posted by Bob, As for their supposed Christian religion, it's a laugh. They distort the Bible completely. Not one word is said in the Bible about not fighting for your country. Thou shalt not kill, means clearly in the Hebrew, Thou shalt not murder your brother, and nothing else whatsoever. The Bible commands you to fight for your country hundreds of times, and orders capital punishment hundreds of times.

Let's see: "Blessed are the peacemakers! For they shall be called the sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
"Let him turn aside from evil and do good. Let him seek peace and pursue it."
(1Peter 3:11)

Originally posted by Bob, Anyone who is against capital punishment is against the Bible no matter who he is.

Including the Pope? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/an.../popestate.html

In his encyclical "Evangelium Vitae" (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world's Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

Originally posted by Bob, They hired people to kill Indians for them so they wouldn't be killed by the Indians. The way they got here was this country was starved for immigrants in the beginning and they were handy and so the founders reluctantly allowed them to come here.

Your source for this allegation? Here is an article about Penn and the Indians: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/PENN/pnind.html <!--QuoteBegin-Bob,@
They are a demonic German sect, a bastardized distortion of the Reformation.
As to their Socialism, they are Communists through and through, and that itself is un-American.[/quote] Demonic? What's the evidence? Or your opinion?

And Socialists and Commies have been a big part of the America we know. There is no area of American life that hasn't been influenced by these philosopies. Eugene V Debs ran for president on the Socialist Party ticket five times. Champion of the American working man in his day. Granted, he didn't knuckle under to the overlords, the railroads in that era. But a great American nonetheless. I could name endless others but you probably only want to know about great patriots like AWOL George and Deferment Dick...

<!--QuoteBegin-Bob,
As for Nixon being a Quaker, his mother was one, and it served him very badly. All his failing can be traced to that poison. [/quote]All Tricky's failing is because of his Quaker mom? I think your argument is unworthy of a debate site, Bob. All opinion; no facts. Hot air...

[Nono]

Originally posted by Sodfather (Benjamin Franklin) really was a smart ass, and, as obviously not many people know, thought of France as "the center of civilization" as opposed to the States when he lived in paris, I believe, for 25 of his 33 last years on Earth. Little disrespectful for a founding father, huh?

I seemed to remember his having been the first US ambassador to France (which would rather let him off the ol' turncoat hook, don't you think?) and checked this on http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/facts/ -- a none-too-reverent site as it reports that he fathered a child out of wedlock.

Turns out he left in 1776 and returned seven years later:

In part via Franklin's popularity, the government of France signed a Treaty of Alliance with the Americans in 1778. Franklin also helped secure loans and persuade the French they were doing the right thing. Franklin was on hand to sign the Treaty of Paris in 1783, after the Americans had won the Revolution. Now a man in his late seventies, Franklin returned to America. He became President of the Executive Council of Pennsylvania. He served as a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and signed the Constitution. One of his last public acts was writing an anti-slavery treatise in 1789.

I'm sure you can appreciate how important it was for the young US to have as its ally Britain's traditional number-one enemy.

Revealing the foibles of our heros (which serves us right for having them) is always a book-seller. So what if Franklin was a cheapskate, etc.? He was also a real Renaissance Man, which is a lot more than you can say for You-Know-Who.

[castille]

Of course, any small community is "socialist" in nature (even a company is "socialist" to a degree).

But the question is....if you have 6 billion Quakers, will they still be an isolated, peaceful, socialist society?

[Nono]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry Socialists and Commies have been a big part of the America we know. There is no area of American life that hasn't been influenced by these philosopies. Eugene V Debs ran for president on the Socialist Party ticket five times.

Yes, it seems incredible today -– given the ideological straightjacket that mainline US politics is confined to -- that early in the 20th century there were Socialist members of the US congress.

[Nono]

Originally posted by castille If you have 6 billion Quakers, will they still be an isolated, peaceful, socialist society?

No. Small is beautiful.

[Bob]

QUAKERS…

I apologize for getting the Quakers confused with other pacifist groups from Germany that also seemed to favor Penn as a place to live.

But my other critical points were much like a number of others have raised.

Franklin was no model of character, but he was intelligent and immensely gifted, and in the free soil of America he was able to be part of a remarkable, I believe divine, creation in this New World, exemplified by the Constitution. I give him credit for all this and more, and I see virtues in the Quakers as well, I just didn’t list them, others did.

Quakers were generally not liked by the other colonies and were bared from most of them, and beaten and put to death in some, as I recall.

I stand by my opinion on Capital punishment, (It is NOT an infallible proclamation of the church. Unlike abortion, Catholics have a choice on following it or not.)

And people who refuse to fight for their country, and let their neighbors fight and die to keep them free, I just have no respect for, and refusing to vote is even worse. This country is plagued by all kinds of groups that fit these conducts.

Virginians under George Washington and others had to go up and defend them in the French and Indian war, for example.

As for me deriding the Quakers, I have known a few, and seen first hand their work getting soldiers to desert and go to Canada. I considered that an unspeakable act of high treason.

[Sodfather]

Judging Quakers by today's presence would be like judging Muslims by today's radical factions. It's just not indicative of the true nature of the group.