Another reason not to live in California

[Mr.Vicchio]

Imagine pulling up to the gas pump, and instead of the usual gas tax - 18 cents per gallon in California - the pump charges you a fee based on the miles you drove since your last gas purchase. A computer in your car, connected to your odometer, transmits your mileage to a computer in the pump, which calculates the fee and adds it to your gas bill on the spot. Imagine pulling up to the gas pump, and instead of the usual gas tax - 18 cents per gallon in California - the pump charges you a fee based on the miles you drove since your last gas purchase. A computer in your car, connected to your odometer, transmits your mileage to a computer in the pump, which calculates the fee and adds it to your gas bill on the spot. http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/sto...-11221326c.html

Scared yet? You should be.

[Technosoul]

I live in California and they do not do that now.

But that would be logical (if cars had the equipment) because those you use the road most should pay for their upkeep more so then people who only drive a little bit. Even if the get more miles to the gal. Because the tax at the pumps is earmarked for street repair and construction. So if I get 40 miles per gal and you get only 10 miles for gal then you pay more taxes, however I might be doing more damage to the roads (tire ware) then you do because I can go over more roads per gal. They could also have some scales at the pump and heavey vechiles would pay more tax then light weight ones.

Being the tax is for street repair (only, as voted for) it is only fair they do it that way.

PS - nice news webpage, I can use it to see what Anorld is up too. He seems to be moving mostly in the right direction.

But don't worry tourists, if your car has no equipment then you got it made in the sun, come visit one of our topless beaches or Disneyland, or Hollywood, or our little known about Moose Musem.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Imagine pulling up to the gas pump, and instead of the usual gas tax - 18 cents per gallon in California - the pump charges you a fee based on the miles you drove since your last gas purchase. A computer in your car, connected to your odometer, transmits your mileage to a computer in the pump, which calculates the fee and adds it to your gas bill on the spot. Imagine pulling up to the gas pump, and instead of the usual gas tax - 18 cents per gallon in California - the pump charges you a fee based on the miles you drove since your last gas purchase. A computer in your car, connected to your odometer, transmits your mileage to a computer in the pump, which calculates the fee and adds it to your gas bill on the spot. http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/sto...-11221326c.html Scared yet? You should be.

Scared, yes, but for a different reason. This sounds like another way to gouge the little guy. Forget for a moment that gas taxes are SUPPOSED to go for the roads, it jams it to the guy who buys the Hyundai and gets 35 mpg. while The Terminator and his 7 mpg APC (Austrian Personnel Carrier) pays less. Nice.
What does scare me is the GPS angle. It looks like a way to suck the sheep into focusing on the gas tax and forgetting the ability to track you everywhere you go.
I occurs to me that in 10 years or so, the only people who will have the ability to sneak around the country will be terrorists. But we'll sure be able to tell you where John Doe is.

[Mr.Vicchio]

What bothers me more is, here we go, they now have a track on you, how much you drive a day, a month a year...

Just wait, they put this in, next thing you know, there wil be "milage caps" you go over it you pay double tax.

Its MORE control of YOUR life by the government... for the common good of course.

Thanks but no thanks.

[tman_ndsu08]

This actually sounds like a reasonable plan to me. Charge the people who use the service and don't charge people who don't use it.

However, like it was pointed out, basing the system on miles driven between pump visits seems rediculus and possibly leaving it self open to cheating (get gas every 1/4 tank instead of every tank to avoid extra costs).

Basing it on total miles driven, however, seems fine to me.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by Technosoul,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Technosoul,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But that would be logical (if cars had the equipment)[/b]

With all the "Rich people" ranting, you should be the most opposed to this idea. This computer chip is a stupid idea. How much will it cost to impliment this system? Lots of Big Govt™ contracts involved. Sounds like a billions of bucks, and 10-15yrs development time at least. It will lower my taxes by what, $.04-.13 a gallon? Nevermind then.

<!--QuoteBegin-Technosoul,
Because the tax at the pumps is earmarked for street repair and construction.[/quote]
HAHAHA, Seeing that it takes 2yrs to build one lane on a freeway here, why are they constantly running out of money? The taxes total more than 18cents. More like 50cents, per gallon, daily!

Repair from the winter salt damage? Tire wear? Fires? If you belive that, you've been lied to my friend. As this article points out, it sounds like a way to punish people who are already paying more for vehicals in order to be environmentally conscience.

[westcoastdog]

The best reason not to come to California is it's too crowded already! We don't need anymore people! There are 33 million now and they are predicting 50 million in ten years. Our roads are constipated (and there's no Ex-Lax); we have a governor who spent time pumping iron instead of going to the university. We have so much pollution that smog is considered natural. Our beaches have great white sharks patrolling the waves. LaLa land is full of pretentious airheads. Silicon valley works overtime to make complicated gadgets that become obsolete in a year. The average middle class house costs a half million. In a decade or two, our cities will resemble the one in Blade Runner. For you health and ours, stay home, or move to Oregon or Washington.

[OberonDOtherseid]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Imagine pulling up to the gas pump, and instead of the usual gas tax - 18 cents per gallon in California - the pump charges you a fee based on the miles you drove since your last gas purchase. A computer in your car, connected to your odometer, transmits your mileage to a computer in the pump, which calculates the fee and adds it to your gas bill on the spot. Imagine pulling up to the gas pump, and instead of the usual gas tax - 18 cents per gallon in California - the pump charges you a fee based on the miles you drove since your last gas purchase. A computer in your car, connected to your odometer, transmits your mileage to a computer in the pump, which calculates the fee and adds it to your gas bill on the spot. http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/sto...-11221326c.html Scared yet? You should be.

Does this mean the more miles you drive the more tax you pay??? Funny, in heating costs, the more fuel you use the less per gallon you pay. For example, when I set up my propane gas account, they asked , are you heating with this, is it high volume? I said, "no, just my stove and my dryer"...consequently, I pay more per gallon because of it.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by tman_ndsu08, This actually sounds like a reasonable plan to me. Charge the people who use the service and don't charge people who don't use it.

In other words, if I try and save some money by buying a car that gets 35 mpg. and go 400 miles on a fillup, I will be charged more in tax than a bigger, heavier (read: more destructive to pavement) car that goes just as far but uses more gas? The people with the older cars are less able to absorb another tax hike and the folks trying to save a ciouple of bucks on gas have it eaten up by tax.

However, like it was pointed out, basing the system on miles driven between pump visits seems rediculus and possibly leaving it self open to cheating (get gas every 1/4 tank instead of every tank to avoid extra costs). Basing it on total miles driven, however, seems fine to me.

Not the way I read it. The pump will measure how much gas you've used and the transponder will tell the pump how far you've driven. In other words, the system is rigged to know if you use 5 ga. (1/4 tank) and go 75 miles as opposed to using 20 gal (full tank) and have driven 300 miles. You will of course pay tax only on the 1/4 tank but you will pay it 4 times as you eventually use the amount it takes to fill up.

[westcoastdog]

When engineers start brain storming, a lot of loony ideas get formulated. The gas mileage tax guage will never fly. First of all, the proper computer and software will have to be installed on every car, which will be a 10-20 year project. Many older cars are still analog and could not be converted to the new system.

Some oil experts are predicting that the world output will hit its peak within the next few years. This means that prices will escalate accordingly, especially since the increased demand from Asia and Eastern Europe. It's conceivable that we will see $5 gallon gasoline by the end of the decade. We won't need gadgets to encourage people to conserve. W. Europe, which has $5 gallon gas, has tiny cars that get 50 miles to the gallon. They will be coming to a dealer near you soon.

P.S. If you think this tax proposal is a good reason to stay away, I agree.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Compugasm,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Compugasm,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Technosoul,@ But that would be logical (if cars had the equipment) With all the "Rich people" ranting, you should be the most opposed to this idea. This computer chip is a stupid idea. How much will it cost to impliment this system? Lots of Big Govt™ contracts involved. Sounds like a billions of bucks, and 10-15yrs development time at least. It will lower my taxes by what, $.04-.13 a gallon? Nevermind then. <!--QuoteBegin-Technosoul, Because the tax at the pumps is earmarked for street repair and construction.

HAHAHA, Seeing that it takes 2yrs to build one lane on a freeway here, why are they constantly running out of money? The taxes total more than 18cents. More like 50cents, per gallon, daily!

Repair from the winter salt damage? Tire wear? Fires? If you belive that, you've been lied to my friend. As this article points out, it sounds like a way to punish people who are already paying more for vehicals in order to be environmentally conscience.[/b][/quote]

You are right because it would cost more for a auto maker to install such gadgets and the auto buyer would pay more for the new cars, people with older cars would have to go some place and pay someone to install it, at what cost?

I think however that was also the case when everyone was required to have anti smog equipment installed, and we survived that extra cost.

You could do a little outsourcing, go to another state and rent a room, buy a car, get their lis. plate and then return to California and pretend to be a tourest (try to look goofy). That sounds extreme but truck drivers do it all the time to save on California fees. As out of state cars do not need to be equiped for California laws. And you could cover the cost as a vacation trip.

My wife drives about 100 miles each day (round trip) just to get to work and back and so this gas idea is not okay personally. In fact I am for removing all taxes from gas (or anything) that is above what the normal sales tax would be on all other products. To hell with sin taxes.

We are lucky because when Nissan downsized my wife was offered early retirement with the perk that we could lease a new car (a new one each year) at rates far below dealership prices. That lease covers cost of insurance, check ups, and all auto repairs needed. It costs me $300.00 per month but well worth it. We just pay for gas. Only now I have a new car but can hardly afford to put gas into it. (price per gal flexes from $1.90 and $2.10 per gal in in L.A. area at Argo stations). All total we pay about $100.00 per month more for gas then we pay to lease the car. ($400.00 a month). Highway robbery by Robin Hood could not be worse. Worse yet I know some of the cost of gas is forcing me to fund the Bush re-election via donations by that industry.

So my idea is simple, remove the "sin tax" part of the cost of gas, and then we arrive at.

1. Cheaper gas with is a better boost for the enconomy then a tax refund.
2. We would not need more gadgets to determine how to collect the sin tax.
3. And we would add a dollar sin tax to each Larry Flint publication and use it to fix pot holes.

We could pay for road repairs by taxing the millions of undocumented workers who add tons more traffic to the roadways, this can be done by selling them a driving permit for California and we can document them with visitor green cards and hire them at low wages to fix the streets and to do some of the work in building freeways (they now cost over a million per mile to construct due partly to union wages).

So they get to drive and can get auto insurance, they get jobs, they help fund the highway construction when the buy the permit, they (insourced labour) get temporary documentation. We get our cost of gas at the pump reduced in price, and also get new highways that are much more affordable to build and maintain which in turn saves the budget and reduces taxes. One gaint sweep solving a number of problems.

That would be the platform for the (yet unfounded) Technocrat Party.

Whatcha think?

[Compugasm]

I think however that was also the case when everyone was required to have anti smog equipment installed, and we survived that extra cost.

It only applies to new cars made by manufacturers. Old cars are grandfathered in. You could argue that the devices are envirnonmentally needed, which is why we have them in the first place. However, the chips are installed for tax reasons.

We could pay for road repairs by taxing the millions of undocumented workers...

Oh, I'm sure they'll gleefully line up and be documented for participation in your forced slavery system. Someone mentioned earlier that Mexico in encouraging their citizens to emmigrate. Mexico should pay us one barrel of oil, each week, for every immigrant they send us.

So they get to drive and can get auto insurance, they get..

Dude, your dreaming! They can already drive. People are suggesting, that they need to be paid more, or the minimum wage be raised.... So they can afford insurance? THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE AT ALL!!! The insured, not being at risk by millions of uninsured will lower the cost of insurance for everyone. Why force people you can't find, into paying a tax! Ah, there, I just hit on the answer.

[westcoastdog]

I believe that this discussion is not confronting the energy dilemma facing Americans. Our culture and economy is dependent on cheap gas, cheap energy. With 5% of the world's population, we consumed 25% of the world's oil. Being a gas hog was possible when half the world's population had minimal cars--the old Soviet Union, China and India. During the past 10-15 years, the number of cars in those countries have experienced geometric growth. Ten years ago Beijing was a city of bicycles, Shanghai too. Now there's traffic congestion in those cities. Eastern Europe and India have also experienced a tremendous increase in cars. The recent upsurge in petroleum prices have occurred because of Bush's war and the increased world wide demand.

You may have noticed that there have been a number of books published recently about the impending oil shortage. If oil production begins to decline, the U.S. faces a potentially catastrophic situation because of its dependency on cheap oil. The worst of all worlds: more demand, less supply. What would happen to households who drive 10,000 miles annually and average 20 miles per gallon? At $5 per gallon, their annual gasoline costs will increase $1500, which means that they will have to earn another $2000 to $2500 in wages.

Because of the popularity of SUVs, the U.S. vehicle efficiency has declined in recent years. (Oddly enough, 75% of people who purchase SUVs claim they are environmentalists.)

Americans use twice as much energy as the Swedes, who have a comparable (maybe higher) standard of living. Our suburbs, miles away from work, are energy sink holes with enormous houses that are often poorly insulated. We feel good when we install double-paned windows. Scandinavians use triple-pane windows. I have an acquaintance who has a 3500+sqft older home in Mill Valley, a wealthy suburb, and his winter heating bill is $1,000.

For some uses, gas can be substituted for oil, like in power plants. When oil becomes expensive, gas demand increases, raising prices. Although water and coal are used to some generate power, a rise in oil and gas prices will lead to a concomitant rise in the cost of electricity.

The energy crisis is not a locomotive rushing towards us. It's more like an enormous glacier drifting towards us, immense and inexorable, and the problems it will create will affect us all. And like all economic problems, the ones who will suffer the most will be the poor and disadvantaged.

This thread began with a proposal for imposing a gasoline tax on mileage. Having lived for more than a half century, I can assure you that government is the last to react to a crisis. On the other hand, the market place operates in real time and you will be paying for a lot more for gas before the government appoints a commission to study the problem.

[Compugasm]

I remember a show in the early 80's called "That's incredibile". On one episode, they featured a bus that ran on hydrogen. I remember this, only because the people were drinking the exhaust. The exhaust was water. 20+ years later, and not one consumer ready product using this technology. Fucking government. (to be fair, the market possibly supressing it as well). My point is, I bet if you took a poll of average people, they'd tell you Hydrogen power doesn't work. But, gas chips are being considered. I point you all, to Ballard Power Systems.

[westcoastdog]

Bush wants to spend billions to develop hydrogen technology, but it's like putting a man on mars. We may have it in 30-50 years because we have to create the technology to produce H cheaply and establish an infrastructure. I follow this subject closely and there are still many Mt. Everests to climb before we see H as a common fuel. My suggestion: buy a hybrid.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by westcoastdog, When engineers start brain storming, a lot of loony ideas get formulated. The gas mileage tax guage will never fly. First of all, the proper computer and software will have to be installed on every car, which will be a 10-20 year project. Many older cars are still analog and could not be converted to the new system. Some oil experts are predicting that the world output will hit its peak within the next few years. This means that prices will escalate accordingly, especially since the increased demand from Asia and Eastern Europe. It's conceivable that we will see $5 gallon gasoline by the end of the decade. We won't need gadgets to encourage people to conserve. W. Europe, which has $5 gallon gas, has tiny cars that get 50 miles to the gallon. They will be coming to a dealer near you soon. P.S. If you think this tax proposal is a good reason to stay away, I agree.

Good idea, if people stay away from California we would have less cars on the road, less need for road repairs and new freeways, great idea, stay away from California - we is the "regulated state" and big brother is watching. We should post a large sign at every road leading into California "Warning, the air in California is hazardous to your health and contains smog which is known by the state to cause cancer". So "go back where you came from". Ha! You guys came up with the best solution for our problems, reduce the population by scareing people away, less traffic, less smog, more jobs for us natives, etc.
so thank you one and all.

I hear a report that if we sold cars to millions in China and if we continued baby booming more dirvers here in the USA (etc.) we could use up all the known oil supplies relatively fast, in about 20 years we will have "no more oil" to pump up out of the ground, then what? How would we maintain a military with no more oil, how could we continue the space program or fly airplanes with no more oil. Within 10 to 15 years most of the oil would be saved for governmental use only and the cost would be great due to supply and demand.

Corn oil, hemp oil, fast food fried potato oil? Hmmm, wonder if we could recycle sewage into gas? Whatever, we better get our government to start planning on those alternatives right away.

Technosoul.

[Compugasm]

During the 80's I was in highschool. My teacher said the worlds oil would be gone by 2000. Seems we have more now than ever. Technology advances to constantly extend supply. So, I don't belive the "it will be gone" arguments anymore.

I have no doubt that one company will control H reguardless if it's granted "no bid" contracts/patents by govt, or rises to the top through private industry. However, it seems impossible to even get to that point within our lifetime.

I'm not a fan of govt monopoly. However, I'm wonding if a govt H industry will get the ball rolling. I know I'm dreaming, but is there a public work project where govt has done this in the past? Maybe privitize it within 20years?

I'm just saying, I know alternatives are being planned. We can't (or won't) impliment any of them, specifically because of the 'Mt. Everests' mentioned by westcoastdog. Fights over distribution, ownership, etc... just keep the whole cycle going. Someone has to just say "Here is your hydrogen, start making something useful with it".

[Compugasm]

Regulators OK world's toughest vehicle emissions rules.

This article didn't connect the dots very well. Tamminen's "Anything we can do" is such shameless, feel-good, bought and paid for, politician doubletalk. Ugh, I'm so disgusted. Is he D or R? He should be fired. Here it is in another way:

[dots]
- This will not roll out until 5 years from now (fully in 11yrs)
- Reduces emissions only 1/10th of 1% (.001)
- The cost (between $1-3K) paid by Big Auto, passed right on the consumer.
[/dots]

This article does not mention:
* The ponzi scheme that is CalTrans.
* The $.50cnt/gal "Clean Air Taxes" which aren't cleaning the air.
* Illegals, pouring over the border like spilled pinto beans leading to...
* More trucks, More trucks, more people and More trucks.
* Politicians reduced the number freeway lanes, by creating carpool lanes.
* 10+ year freeway construction projects which periodically close ramps and lanes, to build more carpool lanes, which are currently empty! Anyone in San Diego travel Mira Mesa Blvd? AARRHHGGGG!!

You can reduce pollution say 1%, within 3 days. Ok, I can't actually prove that. But less driving (either in distance, or time) equals less pollution. This article mentions better airconditioners? You're joking right? That's their solution? What about the deadlock traffic?!?! Follow this logic, If there are:

Year #1 : 1 million cars/hr, 4 lanes of freeway
Year #2 : 1.125 cars/hr
Year #3 : 1.175 cars/hr

As I said I can't prove the 1%, but what Arnold just passed, was feel good backrubs. I'd pass it to if I were him too cause it looks real good on a report card. We just got screwed by government, again. Not Big Auto™ or enviro tramping Republicans™. All of us got screwed for ".001" Politicians once again took the easy way out, and made THE PEOPLE pay for their f'n bullshit! I'm not afraid to kick a card carrying politician in the nuts if that's what it's gonna take!!!

[gr8fuldaniel]

I am sure the oil industry likes the gridlock and overpopulation of urbanites sitting in traffic consuming their product. I dont expect Arnie to do anything but perpetuate the whole scenario. I am familiar with the One-Way carpool lanes that extend 8 miles with no exit in North San Diego County, What a joke. There is plenty of room for another lane or 2. Or stack another couple lanes on top of existing. Somethings gotta give. I-15 Sux, big time.

[Pooeypants]

Btw, do you guys know what the Fuel tax rate in the UK is like? Look it up and you'll feel much better (supposing you're American).