Communism

[ComradeRed]

Indeed, should I be given an optio to believe in the voodoo of "human nature" or the "necessity" of "hierarchy", or acknowledge that mice hunt cats, I would more gladly acknowledge that mice hunt cats.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Voodoo of human Nature?

Okay guy, you are telling me that the urge to compete, to be the best is a fiction? A myth created by society?

Is that what you are saying?

[ComradeRed]

No, I am saying that humanity is raised to be competitive, see Rousseau's "The Noble Beastry" bloody brilliant work on the issue.

[Section 8]

Comrade, you're correct, there is no such thing as human nature in the sense that Mr. V is talking about. However, we are all slaves to our emotions and our instincts, and our emotions and instincts translate into actions and thoughts. For example, survival is an instinct. Mr. V, you're confusing values of our corporate system with human nature. Now, I'm in no way supporting communism, just correcting the notion of human nature.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Prove your assertion then. Seriously, prove that Prior to coperations there was no such thing as copetitiveness.. come on, prove it. Cause I can show throughout history the drive to achive you cannot prove your theory.

[LDS]

I abandoned this post, sorry. This wont be in response to all that was written.



Those who are for 'pure communism'. It is still a terrible system. It does offer equality to an extent, at the price of our freedom.Under pure communism the first ammendment would still be shredded.Our liberties which were bought at such a terrible price, would become void. Equality is a good thing, dont get me wrong, but the freedom to think and act for one's self is an even better prize. YOu may argue that we could still have our freedoms, dont be decieved. In order for communism to work, NOTHING must be higher than the state, Freedom religion must be abolished. NOBODY knows more than the State, Freedom of speech abolished. The State is PERFECT, freedom of press and peaceful assembly, to petition the government, abolished. I for one choose liberty over self deceit and slavery.

Granted under capitalism (which outproduced both allies in WWII) we might have to work a little, and earn our position in society rather than have it handed to us, this is better anyways, isn't this the American dream, crawl over class struggles to earn respect and position? Hardwork and adversity have created some of our greatest men. Will you throw out our greatest strengths in the name of equality? It ISN'T worth it!

[Wonderblob]

Read "Save America for Everyone"
It is the fix for communisim, capitalisim and socialisim.
Wonderblob

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by LDS, Those who are for 'pure communism'. It is still a terrible system.

Wouldn't any "pure" system almost by definition be a terrible system?

[ComradeRed]

Prove your assertion then. Seriously, prove that Prior to coperations there was no such thing as copetitiveness.. come on, prove it. Cause I can show throughout history the drive to achive you cannot prove your theory.

No, I am arguing that you cannot substantiate your assertion that man is inherently competitive/insatiably greedy. YOU have to prove that. I am not trying to prove humanity is chalk full of saints, but that such a "competitive nature" is taught, not "natural"!

Those who are for 'pure communism'. It is still a terrible system. It does offer equality to an extent, at the price of our freedom.Under pure communism the first ammendment would still be shredded.Our liberties which were bought at such a terrible price, would become void.

Yes, now substantiate your assertion.

YOu may argue that we could still have our freedoms, dont be decieved. In order for communism to work, NOTHING must be higher than the state, Freedom religion must be abolished. NOBODY knows more than the State, Freedom of speech abolished. The State is PERFECT, freedom of press and peaceful assembly, to petition the government, abolished. I for one choose liberty over self deceit and slavery.

Oh, you are one of those "Leninism='pure communism'" people. What is Communism? A brief definition. In communism THERE IS NO STATE!!! That would make it a little more difficult to have a status of "the state is perfect".

Granted under capitalism (which outproduced both allies in WWII) we might have to work a little, and earn our position in society rather than have it handed to us, this is better anyways, isn't this the American dream, crawl over class struggles to earn respect and position? Hardwork and adversity have created some of our greatest men. Will you throw out our greatest strengths in the name of equality? It ISN'T worth it!

Capitalism: the art of screwing the people.

BTW, you have to substantiate your claim that "pure communism" is Leninism(that which Marx called "barracks socialism").

[LDS]

Yes, now substantiate your assertion.

Several decades of history isn't enough? The "people's revolution" soon becomes the tyrant's grab for power.

THERE IS NO STATE!!!

Without government there is chaos and misery, whether we like it or not, that is just the way it is. I'd rather that the government be as limited as possible.

Capitalism: the art of screwing the people.

Should corporates give their earnings to the poor? Sure, its the humane thing to do. Should the government force corporations to redistribute their wealth? Absolutely not! Once we lose our rights to do with our property as we see fit there is little to nothing stopping them from taking away other rights.



If you truly want this perfect society, then you should not worry about reforming the government, or trying to get rid of capatilism. Instead reform the individual.

[Mr.Vicchio]

This hate of corperations... its funny, ya know the computer you typed all that blarg on, corperate, the ISP you used is either corperate, or connects to a corperate link on the corepate web, all the computers used, corperate, the food you eat, corperate, the car you drive, the electricity you use, the phone you talk on, the place you live in...

All owned, built, or in someway requires a corperate source.

So you say we should toss all of that for a system of individuals working for everyone else?

IS that about right Comrade Red?

[ComradeRed]

Several decades of history isn't enough? The "people's revolution" soon becomes the tyrant's grab for power.

Wow, you are more ignorant than I took you for! If you were a "scholar" on the left, you would know that those regimes were Leninist. There is a difference between Marxism and Leninism(Marxism is like anarchism deluxe).

Without government there is chaos and misery, whether we like it or not, that is just the way it is. I'd rather that the government be as limited as possible.

No proof to substantiate your claims beside outrageous assertions which even then couldn't be themselves substantiated. There can be a society without federal government.

Should corporates give their earnings to the poor? Sure, its the humane thing to do. Should the government force corporations to redistribute their wealth? Absolutely not! Once we lose our rights to do with our property as we see fit there is little to nothing stopping them from taking away other rights.

No, you fail to understand that what you assert is communism is not it. Communism is the abolition of wage slavery and class. Moreover, you can't substantiate your wild assertion that "property rights=freedom".

If you truly want this perfect society, then you should not worry about reforming the government, or trying to get rid of capatilism. Instead reform the individual.

Aggh... your grammars is destroying my brain. Your spelling too.

This hate of corperations... its funny, ya know the computer you typed all that blarg on, corperate, the ISP you used is either corperate, or connects to a corperate link on the corepate web, all the computers used, corperate, the food you eat, corperate, the car you drive, the electricity you use, the phone you talk on, the place you live in...

Yes, one is like a fly in a spider web of a capitalist society. You cannot escape capitalism until it self destructs!

So you say we should toss all of that for a system of individuals working for everyone else? IS that about right Comrade Red?

No, you do not understand one iota! Moreover, that "system of individuals" is a capitalist myth.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Why would a Capitalist society self destruct? Has one ever done this in modern times?

I know a few Communist regimes that imploded...

Okay then WTF would replace it, I don't get it. You say there would be no system... no govenment, no state?

Er... uhm... okay... So people would just what? Society would work because why?

Tottaly lost now.

[ComradeRed]

Why would a Capitalist society self destruct? Has one ever done this in modern times?

No, it would be like any other phas of history it would collapse all at once[i.e. within a century]. Read Das Kapital, Marx explains it.

I know a few Communist regimes that imploded...

You mean communist states? That is contradictory in terms, there is no state in COMMUNISM.

Okay then WTF would replace it, I don't get it. You say there would be no system... no govenment, no state?

Who runs the show after the revolution?
Can we ever say how communism will work?
What is communism? A brief definition

Er... uhm... okay... So people would just what? Society would work because why? Tottaly lost now.

Yeah, I can deduce you are no expert on marxism. But we all have a lot to learn...even me!

[Mr.Vicchio]

I will bother reading your links when you explain WHY people should give up system that rewards them for thier hard work.

Why should people give up a system that rewards those who take risks.

Why should people give up a system that sees them as individuals, not parts of a great machine.

That rewards people for thinking outside the box.

That rewards people for having their own thoughts and living life as they see fit.

Answer those please, each and I will read your links.

[LDS]

Wow, you are more ignorant than I took you for! If you were a "scholar" on the left, you would know that those regimes were Leninist. There is a difference between Marxism and Leninism(Marxism is like anarchism deluxe).

If you would be so kind as to point out the Marxist societies. It may help. I'm having trouble finding any society who correctly implemented this anarchy deluxe successfully.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Of course there aren't any, because they cannot work, the ease at which power is taken by the elite few to control the powerless many is the mark of the typical communist/socialist country. USSR, Cuba, NK, China.....

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Of course there aren't any, because they cannot work, the ease at which power is taken by the elite few to control the powerless many is the mark of the typical communist/socialist country. USSR, Cuba, NK, China.....

Thom Hartmann, talk show host, says that more "pure" forms of Communism work in very small groups, only. Once you expand it beyond, let's say, a very small village, the concept gets corrupted. Of course, in a small group, it's often feeding off of Capitalism or other "isms," although not always. (Small isolated groups in, let's say, Africa, or Eskimos...)

Seems to make sense.

[castille]

Definitely true, Communism DOES work for small groups (less than 1000).

Many small villages are examples of Communism; if somebody's house burns down, everyone throws in their lot to rebuild it.

Small societies have simple economics. Get enough food for everyone.

In a society of 1.4 billion people, it gets a bit harder. Especially with production...you can't coordinate production lines without an iron-fisted central authority, so as a result Communism in large societies turns into dictatorship.

[ComradeRed]

If you would be so kind as to point out the Marxist societies. It may help. I'm having trouble finding any society who correctly implemented this anarchy deluxe successfully.

:rolleyes: No marxist society has existed, namely because it is necessary to be in post-capitalist(NOT FEUDAL) states. Communism has existed in the Paris Commune[socialism actually] and Primitive communism existed with cave men.

There is no way to tell "for sure" how communism "will work", but by saying that it has never existed is no arguement for why communism won't work.

Of course there aren't any, because they cannot work, the ease at which power is taken by the elite few to control the powerless many is the mark of the typical communist/socialist country. USSR, Cuba, NK, China.....

They're Leninists!!! Its NOT COMMUNISM!!!

I will bother reading your links when you explain WHY people should give up system that rewards them for thier hard work.

"Sam Walton, founder of Wal-Mart, "worked hard" and "got rich". Then he died. His three kids are now worth over 12 billion dollars each!

How hard did they work, climbing out of their mama's birth canal and all?

The Walton family need never lift a finger again...their fortune will grow inevitably.

When her parents die, Bill and Melinda Gates' little girl is going to be one of the richest individuals on the planet...did she work really hard for that money?

There are now hundreds of members of the Rockefeller family...all of whom are wealthier than 99% of all Americans...did they work "really hard" for their inheritances?

Capitalism is a big casino; for every huge winner there are tens of millions of losers...and work (hard, easy, or non-existent) has very little to do with it." -- Redstar2000

Why should people give up a system that rewards those who take risks.

The workers risks LIFE AND LIMB!!! What is more risky than this? "Financial venture"? "God forbid" that money is "lost" to SAVE LIVES!

Why should people give up a system that sees them as individuals, not parts of a great machine.

Ahh! The myth of "individualism versus collectivism!

That rewards people for thinking outside the box.

"Sometimes...and only if it is immediately profitable or promises to be so.

The foundations of the internet, for example, were laid by the U.S. Department of Defense and a number of university research units.

Had it been up to capitalism, the internet would exist (if at all) as a monopoly privilege for the wealthy.

Capitalist economists blather a great deal about "risk"--but the truth of the matter is that real capitalists are most attracted to the sure bet.

Human creativity exists in all social systems. The use of it to "make money" is specific to capitalism." -- Redstar2000

That rewards people for having their own thoughts and living life as they see fit.

Indeed? I have my own thoughts and "living life as I see fit", and it HATES ME! This same system is responsible for imperialism[highest stage of capitalism], fascism[capitalism in decay], etc.