Communism

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by LDS, Communism

Neither "communism" nor "democracy" have ever been implanted in their real forms in our live. Regardless that both ideologies take bearrings at the same goal, both are completely unreal, in our reality.

In order to comply and follow either "communism" or "democracy" fundaments, Mankind needs to undergo changes in QUALITY. That task requires people to go up on much higher intellectual level, at least.
Economy and education are the key players, that task to be accomplished.
Can we afford and go for that ? How ?

[tman_ndsu08]

The "key player" has always been freedom. How much do you give back to people (assuming that people started out 100% free and the government has taken freedom from there)?

[Nono]

Originally posted by tman_ndsu08 people started out 100% free

You mean in hunter-gatherer societies when life was, as Thomas Hobbes put it, "brutish, nasty and short"? Give me the welfare state any day.

[tman_ndsu08]

Originally posted by Nono,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nono,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-tman_ndsu08 people started out 100% free

You mean in hunter-gatherer societies when life was, as Thomas Hobbes put it, "brutish, nasty and short"? Give me the welfare state any day.[/b][/quote]

Our gain in life expectancy is because of technology, not the government.

Give me a recuded government in our present time, any day.

[Nono]

Yes, but technology was able to develop only through the specialization in society made possible by the comparatively recent advent of agriculture. A society that well organized needs, well, organization. This does not happen spontaneously.

Without some sort of "government", human technology would still amount to little more than stone tools.

[tman_ndsu08]

Technology is around because of science. As the markets begain to grow, demand for upgrades is what keeps r/d departments well funded.

I believe technology would've advanted the same or possibly more without government. For example, stem cell research.

Confused religious groups decided it was bad and lobbied the government to put a stop to it.

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by tman_ndsu08, The "key player" has always been freedom.

No.
Mind (intellect, brain, thought, ect.), instead.

People may be (feel) "free", being stupid as well as without that "freedom".
Neither Communism nor Democracy grants or licences a wisdom by default, or by its ideological fundaments.

[Rainbow]

double post

[tman_ndsu08]

Originally posted by Rainbow,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rainbow,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-tman_ndsu08, The "key player" has always been freedom.

No.
Mind (intellect, brain, thought, ect.), instead.

People may be (feel) "free", being stupid as well as without that "freedom".
Neither Communism nor Democracy grants or licences a wisdom by default, or by its ideological fundaments.[/b][/quote]

But not everyone has an equal oppertunity to be intelligent.

[m5lange1]

Comunism works just fine for what it was named for. Communes. Like at the end of "Outlaw Josey Wales" where all of those outcasts ended up living together on that ranch, or some of those communal farms in the 60s.

It is kind of like a tower of blocks. Depending on the blocks it can start getting shaky with 2 (the smallest commune mathmatically possible) and gets worse the more blocks you add.

An entire government? Hehehehehehe

But like capitalism, it does not really exist in its pure form at a government level.

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by tman_ndsu08, But not everyone has an equal oppertunity to be intelligent.

That is why I wrote, that we need a complete "re-structuring" in :
- economy
- education
in order all the people have equal (or very close to it) chance to be well educated. That is the fundamental requirement for changes in QUALITY.

It will (most likely) never work (or to be achieved).
It will "ruin" economy and market, as well, since we have no sophisticated enough technologies, to comply with people's demands.

In real world, whatever we have, we call it : "democracy".
"Democracy" is a joke, but it is better than other systems :-)))
Imagine these "other systems" ? Hitchcook would never write a better "screenplay" . We do it ourselves, and much better :-)))

[Mr.Vicchio]

You cannot legislate fairness.

Life will never be fair.

Trying to make everything fair and equal.. jsut makes everyone equally miserable and a select elite few living fair.

Every single last attempt at Communism has borne this out to be true.

Communism is one of those "good intentions" ideas. But you know the old saying, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

[tman_ndsu08]

in order all the people have equal (or very close to it) chance to be well educated.

That's an interesting idea, but that's not what I said.

I said not everyone has an equal oppertunity to be intelligent. Obviously education enhances intelligence, but there will always be smart and stupid people.

[castille]

Communism has been TRIED. No, it did not succeed, but you cannot say nobody tried.

If you argue real Communism has never been tried, then I can argue real capitalism has never been tried either (since technically, no country uses pure capitalism).


Maybe your middle-class American professors idealize Communism as a "glorious" paradise where everyone is equal, but "real" Communism consisted of bands of youths burning books, buildings, and people.

Sorry to show you the real world. We now bring you back to your ivory tower.

[Compugasm]

Communism works, on paper.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Originally posted by Compugasm, Communism works, on paper.

Yep.

If a computer made all the decisions, and everyone was ahppy being equal with everyone else. It would work.

Human nature, demands competition, demands that people strive to better themselves... things Communism cannot accept.

[ComradeRed]

If a computer made all the decisions, and everyone was ahppy being equal with everyone else. It would work.

Wow, thank you so much...for demonstrating your misconception of communism! You misconceive that equality doesn't take into accound what is needed, but rather an equal amount to all totally irrelevant to needs. I seem to remember somewhere, Marx once said FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HIS ABILITY, TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEED!

Human nature, demands competition, demands that people strive to better themselves... things Communism cannot accept.

Human Nature? Do you have any scientific evidence to substantiate such a claim?

The plain fact of the matter is that human nature doesn't even exist outside the realm of animal instincts!

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by tman_ndsu08, That's an interesting idea, but that's not what I said. I said not everyone has an equal oppertunity to be intelligent. Obviously education enhances intelligence, but there will always be smart and stupid people.

#1
That is not an idea, but bases for communism and democracy.
#2
That has not much in common DIRECTLY with any ideology or a political system, but :
- medicine
- anatomy
- society and interactions within (it)
- family
- education
- ect.

Generally, a person's intellect is a veriety of compilations and that particular person's characteristics - who by interacting with an invorment a person dwells - MAY result in a man's higher or lower IQ, but will never provide a specific and required one.
The answer stays within that person's abilities, which are not known to medicine as of yet. Maybe later, genetics will help us to make a progress in that matter, though, but not now yet.

That is why I wrote that neither communism nor democracy exist or may have a chance to appear in their real forms, due to Mankind "capabilities".
As of now, "majority" is accepted, but it does not licence the correct decision.

[tman_ndsu08]

You agree, however, that people vary in their ability to understand differnt concepts as they increase in complexity?

[Magpie]

Originally posted by LDS, I'm not sure about how you guys feel about communism. However I'd like to say that it is a terrible form of government. It is more like state instituted slavery than a utopian government. Every nation it has been instituted in has brought misery and woe. Why would anyone want this form of government, especially here in America?

I agree on this. I grew up in a former communist state. I can't really say I miss it. Capitalism has one advantage over communism: the people in charge don't need to pretend not to be corrupt, they can really be humans, evil and corrupt.
Communism in human society on top will always mean having more or less an authoritian oligarchy with a heirship in successors. On the lower people will really be equal in low living standards a.k.a poverty. It is basically a monarchy with burgeoise(sp?) origins and an agenda. To have real communism humans have to transcend somehow and as we can see in history: transcendence is something humans in general are incapable of.