Insurance and Healthcare

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: tengers Ok, we have gotten past GNP, Canada, WHO, cancer rates in the US, survival rates, government inefficiencies, Bart says, Barnhardt says, and so forth. I would propose the following: 1. ... 2. .... 3. ...

1, yes. 2. I suspect a good portion of those 15% have no salary to deduct from. 3. I would doubt if a savings of $2000 per person could be reallized

[tengers]

Quote by: barnhardt2010 1, yes. 2. I suspect a good portion of those 15% have no salary to deduct from. 3. I would doubt if a savings of $2000 per person could be reallized

Take a walk on the wild side, otherwise 46 million people have no insurance and you will never know otherwise. I also think if someone actually asked the people to try and save healthcare costs, ala Victory Gardens, most would do it, especially if they could get paid for it. I'll have to check on people employed, who have no insurance, but that only affects 25% of the outcome, if all were unemployed, which I don't think is the case.

[barts]

Quote by: tengers Take a walk on the wild side, otherwise 46 million people have no insurance and you will never know otherwise. I also think if someone actually asked the people to try and save healthcare costs, ala Victory Gardens, most would do it, especially if they could get paid for it. I'll have to check on people employed, who have no insurance, but that only affects 25% of the outcome, if all were unemployed, which I don't think is the case.

It's surreal that Americans find it so difficult to implement--and even sometimes to discuss--a perfectly normal public service that every citizen in every other industrialized country and many less developed countries takes for granted.

What's even more bizarre, despite all evidence to the contrary and all their suffering and fears, many Americans think lack of low or no cost universal health care is a good and "American" thing.

Perhaps in some strange and painful way we all deserve what we get.

[tengers]

Barts, I don't really think this is limited to health care. Americans like their country, but they just don't like Government. Americans like extreme wealth and would go to the end of the earth to defend some banker's $100 million bonus, and his $25,000/hr salary, yet we object violently to a carpenter making $25 bucks an hour. We defend the large monopoly, but hate the union. We are a peculiar people at times.

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: barts It's surreal that Americans find it so difficult to implement--and even sometimes to discuss--a perfectly normal public service that every citizen in every other industrialized country and many less developed countries takes for granted. .

??? We would first need to decide that we want public healthcare, before we could encounter any difficulty in implementing it. Dont ya think?

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: tengers Barts, I don't really think this is limited to health care. Americans like their country, but they just don't like Government. Americans like extreme wealth and would go to the end of the earth to defend some banker's $100 million bonus, and his $25,000/hr salary, yet we object violently to a carpenter making $25 bucks an hour. We defend the large monopoly, but hate the union. We are a peculiar people at times.

I cant imagine any Americans complaining about a carpeter making $25 /hr. And we believe in freedom of exchange. And several Americans here, freely talking about healthcare.

[tengers]

Quote by: barnhardt2010 I cant imagine any Americans complaining about a carpeter making $25 /hr. And we believe in freedom of exchange. And several Americans here, freely talking about healthcare.

Put the word union in front of carpenter or autoworker.

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: tengers Put the word union in front of carpenter or autoworker.

Thats because the unions restrict the individuals freedom of exchange.

[Cruella]

It's also wandering off-topic.

[tengers]

Not really, if you understand Americans. We have been wrestling with Health Care for at least 40 years and never seem to be able to do what other modern nations find simple. It has to do with our psyche and it is the primary obstacle, or reason that universal healthcare finds so much resistance in this country.We will allow it for the old or for some poverty class, but if you are perceived as able bodied, its "no soup for you", even if what we are doing is the most expensive system in the world.

[barts]

Quote by: barnhardt2010 ??? We would first need to decide that we want public healthcare, before we could encounter any difficulty in implementing it. Dont ya think?

On balance, most public opinion polls (there are some exceptions) seem to suggest that the majority of Americans have already made up their minds about public health care. They're in favor of it. See Tracking Poll Examines Public Opinion About Health Care Reform and Kaiser Family Foundation Health Care.

So, what's left to discuss except how public health care will be implemented?

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: barts On balance, most public opinion polls (there are some exceptions) seem to suggest that the majority of Americans have already made up their minds about public health care. They're in favor of it. See Tracking Poll Examines Public Opinion About Health Care Reform and Kaiser Family Foundation Health Care. So, what's left to discuss except how public health care will be implemented?

Two links refering to the same poll, from a think tank that advocates for public healthcare. Here are two different polls that show precisely the opposite. I guess "most" is one of those words like "worst" that you like to use that dont have the plain and ordinary meaning that people would usually attribute to those words.


No Increase in Public Pressure for Healthcare Reform

Rasmussen Reports™: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere

[barts]

Quote by: barnhardt2010 Two links refering to the same poll, from a think tank that advocates for public healthcare. Here are two different polls that show precisely the opposite. I guess "most" is one of those words like "worst" that you like to use that dont have the plain and ordinary meaning that people would usually attribute to those words. No Increase in Public Pressure for Healthcare Reform Rasmussen Reports™: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere

Do you not read my posts? Did I not mention there were exceptions to the general polling results that show public opinion favoring public health care? It would be helpful if you'd respond to what I post, not what you imagine I post.

[barts]

Quote by: tengers Not really, if you understand Americans. We have been wrestling with Health Care for at least 40 years and never seem to be able to do what other modern nations find simple. It has to do with our psyche and it is the primary obstacle, or reason that universal healthcare finds so much resistance in this country.We will allow it for the old or for some poverty class, but if you are perceived as able bodied, its "no soup for you", even if what we are doing is the most expensive system in the world.

tenger, I'm not sure it's the American "psyche" that makes public health care so difficult to implement in the US. I'd put greater weight on the US electoral system, which requires that candidates for public office sell themselves to corporate interests to fund their election campaigns. Much of what takes place, perfectly legally, in the funding of elections in the US is illegal in most democracies. Essentially, Congress and most state legislatures are bought and paid for by the highest bidders. It's not surprising then that US health care policy is, for the most part, determined not by what best services the public, but by corporate interests and the maximization of profits at the expense of the patient.

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: barts Do you not read my posts? Did I not mention there were exceptions to the general polling results that show public opinion favoring public health care? It would be helpful if you'd respond to what I post, not what you imagine I post.

Why yes I did. Did you have a point you wanted to make? Do you think you might be able to actually put it into words? Anything other than maybe posting yet a third link to your one study to support your assertions about most public opinion polls?

[Cruella]

Stick to debating content, you two.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[rmnunez]

“We appreciate the rhetoric and his willingness to ratchet up the pressure but what most Democrats on the Hill are looking for is for the president to weigh in and make decisions on outstanding issues. Instead of sending out his people and saying the president isn’t ruling anything out, members would like a little bit of clarity on what he would support –especially on how to pay for his health reform bill,” a senior Democratic congressional source tells CNN. CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Senator: Democrats ‘baffled’ by president’s health care stance « - Blogs from CNN.com

So get ready for some more rhetoric and baloney from Obama tonight, and not much specifics on how he proposes to pay for this wonderful and universal health care so many united statians when polled both welcome and repudiate.

[barts]

Getting past the ideologies and generalities and propaganda, sometimes a reality check is helpful. For your enjoyment and erudition:

My whopping $32 emergency room visit in the land of socialized medicine.

... which reads in part,

This afternoon I went to the emergency room of the Centre Hospitalier National d'Ophtalmologie des Quinze-Vingts in Paris, France. It's a hospital that specializes in eye problems. I had to have emergency eye surgery on the spot. With the national debate on health care raging in Washington, it seemed timely to share my story. I wrote earlier today about yet another hellish experience with CareFirst Blue Cross Blue Shield last night. ... I called Blue Cross, my insurer to inquire what my coverage was while abroad. They were total idiots. I explain that conversation in the post I link to above. Suffice it to say, Blue Cross first told me I was covered wherever I went, then a second employee told me I would only be covered if I went to an emergency room, but not if I stepped foot out of the emergency room for emergency care. Shrugging off the utter confusion that was the advice I got from Blue Cross, and their implied threat not to cover me if the emergency room sent me to a specialist for emergency treatment, I went to the Centre Hospitalier National d'Ophtalmologie des Quinze-Vingts, a local hospital here in Paris that specializes in eye conditions.

[tengers]

Quote by: barts tenger, I'm not sure it's the American "psyche" that makes public health care so difficult to implement in the US. I'd put greater weight on the US electoral system, which requires that candidates for public office sell themselves to corporate interests to fund their election campaigns. Much of what takes place, perfectly legally, in the funding of elections in the US is illegal in most democracies. Essentially, Congress and most state legislatures are bought and paid for by the highest bidders. It's not surprising then that US health care policy is, for the most part, determined not by what best services the public, but by corporate interests and the maximization of profits at the expense of the patient.

There is certainly something to be said for lobbyists and their impact upon this Republic, they may even be the dominant force, but what I am talking about is down at the barbershop, people are either a bit apathetic about it, and highly suspicious of Government. They basically have the idea that people who don't have insurance are somehow at fault. It sort of blends into the welfare mom idea, rather than this guy has a broken pelvis, then lost his job as a stevedor, then lost his house and his health provider cancelled him out and his new provider won't insure a pre-existing condition. Americans will take care of the old and helpless, but if you are middle aged and have a heartbeat, we are not particularly sympathetic.

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: tengers , people are either a bit apathetic about it, and highly suspicious of Government. .

Suspicious of government providing public healthcare for everybody instead of providing public healthcare for those who cannot afford it.
Notice how the most massive increase in government entittlements in decades, the prescription drug modernization act was passed by a Republican Congress and President. Had they tried to make prescription drugs for everybody a "public" function of government, it wouldnt of standed a chance.