Burkas in France

[Charlatan]

French parliament to consider burka ban - CNN.com

The burka is part of a culture, but that culture is set in a land far away. What it says when a woman wears it is that they love thier culture and would like to dress in this way. If women are allowed to wear veils to a wedding, there is no difference, it is just customary.

They should be allowed to wear this on dya swhen they feel they are one not with thier husband, but the entire culture.

[Nono]

To the point that they send their daughters to school enshrouded head to toe, with just a thickly veiled slit in front of their eyes so they don't fall down the stairs (and to school only because the law forces them to send their kids to school)? If not, just where would you draw the line?

And if the family suspects the girl has been naughty with a boy, well the father or the brother may knock her off in an "honour killing". Yes, this happens. And they invariably plead that it's their culture that requires this.

But hell, they're living in France (or Sweden or wherever), not in bloody Kurdistan or Yemen.

Jeez, Charlatan, the marriage veil is a vestige, just as the Christmas tree is a vestige of paganism. Don't mean nothin.
The burka does.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Quote by: Charlatan French parliament to consider burka ban - CNN.com The burka is part of a culture, but that culture is set in a land far away. What it says when a woman wears it is that they love thier culture and would like to dress in this way.

In other words, are you saying that the wearing of the burqa in a culture where it is not {endemic,} suggests that the woman loves her own culture more than the surrounding culture? Or that a woman loves another culture more than the culture that she is presently in?

Secondly, can you think of any possible ramifications of such professed love? That is to say, can you think of any consequences that could arise from individuals, who as a result of a love, are wedded to the ways of a culture that is not like the one that they are in?

Quote by: Charlatan If women are allowed to wear veils to a wedding, there is no difference, it is just customary.

…to wear a veil to a wedding.

Quote by: Charlatan They should be allowed to wear this on dya swhen they feel they are one not with thier husband, but the entire culture.

Yes, just like women at a wedding?

Secondly, why? Is that the culture of the French? And if not, then why should the entire culture be forced to subject themselves to the ways of a culture that is set in a land that is said to be {far away?} Why should the French be {subjected} to the ways of a culture and identity that is to not be their own? Why should the French be forced to compromise their own culture and identity?

[The Black Ghost]

Many islamic women wear the traditional dress because they beleive they should, and are not forced. Many are forced though.

The entire point of the garb is to keep men's "wandering eyes" off of the woman so they see her for her personality only, not her looks--a noble idea I suppose...if strange.

The problem with that is that instead of not looking at these women, now everyone looks at them like they are assasins or criminals. Historically, many islamic women use their burkas to steal things from stores, conceal weapons in some places, and to avoid having accurate mugshot pictures taken, among other things.

[tinybear]

This British Muslim woman argues a strong case against the burqa.

Why I, as a British Muslim woman, want the burkha banned from our streets | Mail Online

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: The Black Ghost The entire point of the garb is to keep men's "wandering eyes" off of the woman so they see her for her personality only, not her looks--a noble idea I suppose...if strange.

As a male, I am personally affronted by the burka because it implies that all men are so weak as to be unable to resist lusting after every female they pass in the street - I find this offensive and insulting.

To be regarded as a potential groper or rapist is not very respectful, and besides, the whole idea of covering up women started in the misogynistic notion that women were nothing more than the property of their male relatives, reserved for their eyes alone... In that sense it is degrading to the woman as well.

There is now some talk of banning the burka here in Britain - a move I wholeheartedly support.

Apart from all that - (being artistically inclined), I find the burka visually offensive as well. To be surrounded by drab amorphous forms shuffling along in their own claustrophobic world is a depressing experience in itself. The whole idea, and the thinking behind it is grotesque.

[tinybear]

"And behind the closed doors of some Muslim houses, countless young women are told to wear the hijab and the veil. These are the girls who are hidden away, they are not allowed to go to university or choose who they marry. In many cases, they are kept down by the threat of violence.

The burkha is the ultimate visual symbol of female oppression. It is the weapon of radical Muslim men who want to see Sharia law on Britain's streets, and would love women to be hidden, unseen and unheard. It is totally out of place in a civilised country. "

How true.

[Walrus]

I see no good reason why people should be encouraged to be ashamed of their bodies. As to wearing a mask, our face is what people use to identify us by as individuals and by wearing a mask you lose that identity and your individuality ... you become a non-person.

[ceser]

The fact that some Muslim women actually support wearing burkas is a joke. They support it because they were born into that oppressive culture and brainwashed into accepting it, or they were brainwashed as a child by religious fundamentalists. Find me one woman who lives in and grew up in a free society who decided as an adult to start wearing a burka.

[Nono]

Name me a free society (in which people don't get brainwashed) and I'll eat my hat.

[tinybear]

America! Land of the free. Home of the brave.

(Got your hat out yet, Nono? )

[ceser]

Quote by: Nono Name me a free society (in which people don't get brainwashed) and I'll eat my hat.

Whether you think people are brainwashed in every country is beside the point. The fact that these women are brainwashed into wearing burkas still goes to show that the practice has no rational justification other than the oppression of women in those countries. That there is no real reason for it is also shown by the fact that virtually any Muslim woman in one of the world’s freer societies would deem it absurd to wear what amounts to little more than a bed sheet with a slit in it. By freer societies I mean having most fundamental rights like freedom of speech, freedom or religion, equality of the sexes enforced by law, etc.

[Nono]

I agree. It's insane. But notions of modesty and propriety are beyond rational, and if you scratch at the veneer of any society you'll see all manner of irrationality that we take for granted.

I have a young Algerian colleague who wears her hair tied at the back in sort of a wee black kerchief, something I take as a concession (as far as she's personally willing to go) to the demands of her culture.

If anybody chuckles over that, I suggest they look out the window at all those phallic cars driving by.

[Praxius]

Quote by: tinybear America! Land of the free. Home of the brave. (Got your hat out yet, Nono? )

Not valid, as you were born and brainwashed into thinking the above

And isn't it the same thing as Jewish people wearing their caps, or nuns having to be all covered up?

If they choose to wear them and it's not harming anybody, who cares?

Since when did France start getting Fashion Police?

I think they have a lot more important things to be concerned about, like getting the US to call Freedom Fries, French Fries again.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Praxius Not valid, as you were born and brainwashed into thinking the above And isn't it the same thing as Jewish people wearing their caps, or nuns having to be all covered up?

To me, this is another example of brainwashing into the cult of statecraft. The less than subtle message being, "the government of France is above the ways of your religion". The fact that this controversy is coming from Europe -- supposedly secular and enlightened France -- is pretty revealing. If they keep this up, France will certainly have greater problems than ladies covering their heads.

Grandpa h.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ceser Whether you think people are brainwashed in every country is beside the point. The fact that these women are brainwashed into wearing burkas still goes to show that the practice has no rational justification other than the oppression of women in those countries.

How is your inability to oogle their bodies easily, somehow oppression?

Every religion is about brainwashing..... if you're born into a faith, you are brainwashed into believing everything they tell you, because you trust your parents and those older then you.

Regardless, many of them are adults who are capable of making their own decisions..... you're complaining about a piece of fabric for frig sakes..... who cares?

That there is no real reason for it is also shown by the fact that virtually any Muslim woman in one of the world’s freer societies would deem it absurd to wear what amounts to little more than a bed sheet with a slit in it. By freer societies I mean having most fundamental rights like freedom of speech, freedom or religion, equality of the sexes enforced by law, etc.

And where I live, there are those who still choose to wear them. There's no reason why we wear any of our clothing.... besides when it's winter time, there is no practical use for any clothing.

This nit picking over, indeed, a sheet of cloth, is completely absurd.

If you are not a part of the religion, mind your own business.

The government is ment to protect people from more serious things other then what they wear...... they are not the fashion police.

[Praxius]

Quote by: grandpa To me, this is another example of brainwashing into the cult of statecraft. The less than subtle message being, "the government of France is above the ways of your religion". The fact that this controversy is coming from Europe -- supposedly secular and enlightened France -- is pretty revealing. If they keep this up, France will certainly have greater problems than ladies covering their heads. Grandpa h.

Agreed.... they are not above the religion and the religion is not above the government..... seperation of church and state works both ways.

Unless someone's rights are being oppressed, they have no business getting involved.

And if these women choose to wear it.... then they have no business getting involved.

[The Black Ghost]

Quote by: GeminiBrian As a male, I am personally affronted by the burka because it implies that all men are so weak as to be unable to resist lusting after every female they pass in the street - I find this offensive and insulting. To be regarded as a potential groper or rapist is not very respectful, and besides, the whole idea of covering up women started in the misogynistic notion that women were nothing more than the property of their male relatives, reserved for their eyes alone... In that sense it is degrading to the woman as well. There is now some talk of banning the burka here in Britain - a move I wholeheartedly support. Apart from all that - (being artistically inclined), I find the burka visually offensive as well. To be surrounded by drab amorphous forms shuffling along in their own claustrophobic world is a depressing experience in itself. The whole idea, and the thinking behind it is grotesque.

Its all just because the Muslim men want it all too themselves. They are applled at cultural contamination and interracial mixing.


I think its odd, but then again, people wear weird things elsewhere too--and unless it is something overly-revealing to the point where it could be called "public indecency"--they have the right to wear it. I dont think government aught to regulate such things honestly, at least with laws.

I think this will only have a reverse affect and make the muslim world hate us more. Many islamic people have become more moderate through integrating into western society, and I think by forcing them to follow certain laws, it will only make them more secluded among us and in the end, nothing will change.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Quote by: Nono To the point that they send their daughters to school enshrouded head to toe, with just a thickly veiled slit in front of their eyes so they don't fall down the stairs (and to school only because the law forces them to send their kids to school)? If not, just where would you draw the line? And if the family suspects the girl has been naughty with a boy, well the father or the brother may knock her off in an "honour killing". Yes, this happens. And they invariably plead that it's their culture that requires this. But hell, they're living in France (or Sweden or wherever), not in bloody Kurdistan or Yemen. Jeez, Charlatan, the marriage veil is a vestige, just as the Christmas tree is a vestige of paganism. Don't mean nothin. The burka does.

But what about the freedom of religion? What ever happened to the guarantee of the freedom to practice one’s religion as they see fit? Why should you be allowed to restrict the individual’s religious beliefs and freedoms? Why should the beliefs of the French be allowed to take precedence over the religious beliefs of the Muslim visitors? Why should the Muslim visitor not be allowed to practice his belief of honor killings in the land of the French? Why should the French be able to suppress the views of the Muslim visitor? Why shouldn’t the Muslim visitor be allowed to impress his culture and views upon the French?

Quote by: The Black Ghost Many islamic women wear the traditional dress because they beleive they should, and are not forced. Many are forced though.

And even those that believe are [forced.]

Quote by: The Black Ghost The entire point of the garb is to keep men's "wandering eyes" off of the woman so they see her for her personality only, not her looks--a noble idea I suppose...if strange.

Why is the idea {noble} but {strange?}

Quote by: The Black Ghost The problem with that is that instead of not looking at these women, now everyone looks at them like they are assasins or criminals.

…in countries where such clothing is not seen as part of the {native} culture. People of the societies where the attire is not seen as part of the {native} culture are looking at these {strangely} dressed individuals with that fear and apprehension. On would think that a Muslim woman in a burqa is not looked at with the same fear and apprehension when she is in a {native} area as Saudi Arabia.

Quote by: The Black Ghost Historically, many islamic women use their burkas to steal things from stores, conceal weapons in some places, and to avoid having accurate mugshot pictures taken, among other things.

This may be said to be quite an interesting detail that you should bring up. Now where is it that Muslim women have been behaving in this way that has caused their Behaviors to become such noted {historical} occurrences?

[tinybear]

Quote by: Mr. Mxyzptlk But what about the freedom of religion? What ever happened to the guarantee of the freedom to practice one’s religion as they see fit? Why should you be allowed to restrict the individual’s religious beliefs and freedoms? Why should the beliefs of the French be allowed to take precedence over the religious beliefs of the Muslim visitors? Why should the Muslim visitor not be allowed to practice his belief of honor killings in the land of the French? Why should the French be able to suppress the views of the Muslim visitor? Why shouldn’t the Muslim visitor be allowed to impress his culture and views upon the French?

If a religion permits, indeed encourages, injustice and oppression, why should the state uphold its freedom to do so? Freedom of religion, like other freedoms, is not absolute, nor is it paramount.