Burkas in France

[Praxius]

Quote by: GeminiBrian At least the "teenage sluts" don't get rickets from lack of sunlight or chronic respiratory problems (both well-known side-effects of wearing the burka) - and as far as I know their brothers or husbands don't strangle them for bringing dishonour on the family.

No, rather, the "teenage sluts" end up getting pregnant in grade 9, loaded up with genital warts and other various STD's from taking turns with the hockey team on a saturday night, sucking off of the system because they had to drop out of school, pass their children off to their parents while they go out and party and slut it up some more and get more people infected and/or gets pregnant again..... but will keep doing it because that's the only way they can feel accepted in society is through their body and legs spread apart for anybody who's got a few bucks or at least will act like they are listening to her sob story of her cursed good looking body and toubled life, which the guys of the society are told is all you need to do to get the ladies.... money and charm.... who needs to truly give a damn about anybody else other then yourself?

Eventually she's caught screwing around and her boyfriend at the time shoots the guy she's screwing while she's still on top of him, then pistol whips the crap out of her, drags her outside by the hair, kicks her in the ribs and down the grassy hill to the river below, then shoots her three times in the back of the head, chops up her body and burns her body.

Then when the police arrest him he claims God told him to do it, so it's ok.

(See, I can create extreme situations to discount the other side of the argument too)

ps. and its more difficult to conceal shop-lifted goods when you're wearing only a skimpy top, a thong and very little else. . .

Shop lifting isn't one of my bigger concerns in life.

[Praxius]

Quote by: GeminiBrian Once again - the burka is not a religious requirement (the Qur'an doesn't contain a singe reference to it) - it is purely a cultural thing that has gone a lot further than the Qur'an's simple instruction to dress modestly. It is important to remember this distinction because religious and cultural traditions are two different things, even though they often overlap. Thus freedom to practice one's religion is not the issue in this case - and that's not affected by banning the burka. It can be legitimately be banned without violating any religion.

In the Bible, I don't remember anything describing that priests or nuns had to wear what they currently wear, yet they do and it's accepted...... what's your point?

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: L00zer I do not believe that the Qur'an is the only thing that determines whether or not the burqa is religious or not. While it may not be referenced to in Islam's holy book, I am sure that if one goes to places in the Middle East one can see that now, it is a religious article of clothing. Similarly, a yalmulka, or kippah, is not talked about in the Torah. Yet Jews like myself always wear it (not showering, sleeping, etc., but you get my point).

Covering the top of your head is not exactly the same as covering your whole body down to the ground. Neither do you (I hope) wear your yarmulke as a symbol of male ownership (or female ownership, for that matter)...

I imagine you wear it out of respect for your God, and not because it is assumed you will be lusted after in the streets should the top of your head remains bare.

Even moderate Muslims of both sexes denounce the burka as an unnecessary aberration - and I believe it is always right to give moral support to the more moderate element in any religion, being as extremism and fundamentalism have proved to be so violent and belligerent across the globe...

The more accurate Muslim equivalent of your yarmulka is probably the headscarf, and that is infinately less offensive than the full burka.

[princessme23]

No, rather, the "teenage sluts" end up getting pregnant in grade 9, loaded up with genital warts and other various STD's from taking turns with the hockey team on a saturday night, sucking off of the system because they had to drop out of school, pass their children off to their parents while they go out and party and slut it up some more and get more people infected and/or gets pregnant again..... but will keep doing it because that's the only way they can feel accepted in society is through their body and legs spread apart for anybody who's got a few bucks or at least will act like they are listening to her sob story of her cursed good looking body and toubled life, which the guys of the society are told is all you need to do to get the ladies.... money and charm.... who needs to truly give a damn about anybody else other then yourself? Eventually she's caught screwing around and her boyfriend at the time shoots the guy she's screwing while she's still on top of him, then pistol whips the crap out of her, drags her outside by the hair, kicks her in the ribs and down the grassy hill to the river below, then shoots her three times in the back of the head, chops up her body and burns her body.

What the hell.....?
nice bedtme story you told there...anyway....

What about turbans? what are they for?
I see many woman wearing burkas quite happily in day to day life, even taking pridein them as a symbol of their religion.
Dressing them up and decorating them, some just plain basic every day wear.

This is a story of a banning of one in schoool.
Its for no other reason other then it makes people uncomfortable. People lke to judge a book by its cover afterall.

I can understand some woman are being oppressed, but not all.
If we start bannng clothing we open the door to banning loads of things that people find unacceptable in peoples opinions.
thats how things like wars are started, judging other peoples religions wrongly.

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Legal fight for school veil

Its wrong to tell people what to wear. If you want to start worrying about woman being oppressed, which Im not denying, then start with the ritual stonings and arranged child marriages. Not with items of clothing that many woman choose to wear

[GeminiBrian]

[QUOTE]

Quote by: Praxius No, rather, the "teenage sluts" end up getting pregnant in grade 9, loaded up with genital warts and other various STD's from taking turns with the hockey team on a saturday night, sucking off of the system because they had to drop out of school

In Afghanistan, the taliban try hard to enforce the burka - but they are also against educating girls, tending to shoot those teachers who are found attempting to do so... By that standard, Western girls, (despite your low opinion of them) - have at least the opportunity to attend school in the first place.

I imagine it's relatively easy to control teenage pregnancy and STDs if you keep your daughters locked up at home, and only allow them outside if accompanied by a male relative.

Some would say this is a heavy price to pay for controlling a rebellious young girl - but maybe you see some virtue in it Praxius.

Eventually she's caught screwing around and her boyfriend at the time shoots the guy she's screwing while she's still on top of him, then pistol whips the crap out of her, drags her outside by the hair, kicks her in the ribs and down the grassy hill to the river below, then shoots her three times in the back of the head, chops up her body and burns her body. Then when the police arrest him he claims God told him to do it, so it's ok.

You've been watching too many lurid cheap movies

Shop lifting isn't one of my bigger concerns in life.

I never said it was - what I was getting at was the notoriety some women (and possibly men?) have gained in London's exclusive shopping areas like Oxford Street by stuffing stolen goods into the ample folds of their burkas... Concealed identity a bonus, of course.

[Praxius]

Quote by: princessme23 What the hell.....? nice bedtme story you told there...anyway....

No more different then some of the other speculative filth I've been reading in here.

What about turbans? what are they for?

Shall we start picking apart an entire culture's clothing line now?

What's underwear for? Ask a Christian.

I see many woman wearing burkas quite happily in day to day life, even taking pridein them as a symbol of their religion. Dressing them up and decorating them, some just plain basic every day wear. This is a story of a banning of one in schoool. Its for no other reason other then it makes people uncomfortable. People lke to judge a book by its cover afterall. I can understand some woman are being oppressed, but not all. If we start bannng clothing we open the door to banning loads of things that people find unacceptable in peoples opinions. thats how things like wars are started, judging other peoples religions wrongly. BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Legal fight for school veil Its wrong to tell people what to wear. If you want to start worrying about woman being oppressed, which Im not denying, then start with the ritual stonings and arranged child marriages. Not with items of clothing that many woman choose to wear

Agreed... there's worse things out there to be worried about then what someone wears.

[Praxius]

Quote by: GeminiBrian In Afghanistan, the taliban try hard to enforce the burka - but they are also against educating girls, tending to shoot those teachers who are found attempting to do so... By that standard, Western girls, (despite your low opinion of them) - have at least the opportunity to attend school in the first place.

Ah yes, here we go again with the emotional side tracking.

So because the Taliban practice their own extremist view of the faith, suddenly you think it's fine to paint everybody who follows Islam with the same brush?

Ok.... I'll just do the same with Christians based on David Koresh's views of the faith.... or how about the Ku Klux Klan?

I imagine it's relatively easy to control teenage pregnancy and STDs if you keep your daughters locked up at home, and only allow them outside if accompanied by a male relative.

Certainly a lot better then tollerating your child mouthing off to you, demanding money so they can go and drink it up with their friends and do whatver they want, because you don't want to seem like a bad or abusive parent by restricting them..... that being their friend is more important then being their parent.

I have encountered one too many of these little brats who have no problem flashing their bodies around and risking their own health, safety and lives just to get what they want or just to fit in, or to be cool, or peer pressure.

Example?

Sure:

B.C. teens selling sex on Craigslist: RCMP
B.C. teens selling sex on Craigslist: RCMP

"A search on Craigslist on June 26 turned up some disturbing postings. One, placed by an individual the constable knows to be 16 (but who claims to be 18 online), advertises "car dates" with a range of sexual services for $150 or less. Some of these are listed as "uncovered," meaning without a condom, a particularly worrisome detail.

"Most prostitutes will not offer sexual services without condoms, so it's ... quite shocking," said Cpl. Marlene Morton, a spokeswoman for the North Vancouver RCMP who has been involved with the YIU in the past.

Most of the individuals who have fallen into the trap are from North Vancouver's three alternative schools, and many come from unstable homes, said Const. Kitchen. But not everyone fits this profile. Some of the victims come from other schools in the district and from apparently stable households.

And not all appear to have a pimp, she added......"

Or how about this from the US:

1 in 4 teen girls has sexually transmitted disease
1 in 4 teen girls has at least one STD - Kids and parenting- msnbc.com

"CHICAGO - Startling government research on teenage girls and sexually transmitted diseases sends a blunt message to kids who think they’re immune: It’s liable to happen to you or someone you know.

In the first study of its kind, researchers at the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found at least one in 4 teenage American girls has a sexually transmitted disease.

The most common one is a virus that can cause cervical cancer, and the second most common can cause infertility....."

Or:

'Sexting' Teens Can Go Too Far
'Sexting' Teens Can Go Too Far - ABC News

"What happened to the time when if you liked a boy at school you'd pass him a note?

These days the disturbing new trend in teenage flirting is sending nude or semi-nude photos from cell phone to cell phone: instead of "texting," they call it called "sexting."

While the X-rated offerings are usually intended just for a boyfriend or girlfriend, the photos often wind up being shared.

While 17-year-old Matthew Younger of Maryland says he has never done anything like this himself, he has seen it happen among his peers.

"If a boy meets a girl or has a girlfriend on summer break he comes back and shows all his boys the [naked] pictures he's been sent. No one gives it that much thought really," says Younger.

The dangerous combination of teenagers behaving provocatively and impulsively is not new, but the accessibility to the technology is. With cell phone cameras, they have been handed a tool so easy to use for some it's impossible to pass up."

Why is all of this happening?

Just look at our society and how superficial and shallow it has become. We have children looking up to people like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, the Pussy Cat Dolls.....

Now sure, I have no issues with adult entertainment..... but if you want to teach young women some actual independance and self respect, there are many better ways then feel that the only way to get independance and respect is through their bodies being shared around and exposing as much skin as legally possible.... sometimes even beyond what's legal.

And you want the rest of the world to be like this?

Some would say this is a heavy price to pay for controlling a rebellious young girl - but maybe you see some virtue in it Praxius.

The only Virtue I see is allowing people to wear whatver they choose to wear, so long as they accept the consequences of their actions.

We have governments telling us what drugs we can use and which ones we can..... and most of the ones we are allowed, are pharmaceutical... which have killed and screwed up how many people/lives now?

We had the government try and tell us that we can't drink alcohol.

They try and tell us where and what we can smoke.

They try and tell us what operations or medical procedures we will have done to us with or without our approval.

They try and tell us where we can go and what we can do......

Now they want to tell us how to dress?

Now they want to tell us how to conduct our own religious teachings?

If you want to change things.... change people's minds.... the government has no business in these matters.

Seperation of Church and State works both ways. If you don't want a religion telling the government how to run things, don't try and get the government telling the religions how to run things.

You've been watching too many lurid cheap movies

Actually I was thinking something along the lines of Eminem



But I can also see how you got that as well.

I never said it was - what I was getting at was the notoriety some women (and possibly men?) have gained in London's exclusive shopping areas like Oxford Street by stuffing stolen goods into the ample folds of their burkas... Concealed identity a bonus, of course.

Yeah well all the girls wearing skimpy clothes and such don't have to worry about shop lifting in the first place, because they got their gangsta wannabe boyfriends with their baggy pants and sweaters to stuff things into.... they just gotta put out and they'll get a cut.

[Nono]

Quote by: dan4 My point is, we cannot be intolerant of their culture when our culture has some problems too.

Let's take this to its logical conclusion: You are saying that until we purge our own culture of every single objectionable aspect (overly stiff upper lip, whatever) then we cannot be "intolerant" of anything at all in other cultures, no not honour killings, no not slavery, no not murdering albinos to harvest their body parts, no not anything.

Because as long as we display the slightest defects, we have no right to criticize others.

That's what you're saying, correct dan?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Nono Let's take this to its logical conclusion: You are saying that until we purge our own culture of every single objectionable aspect (overly stiff upper lip, whatever) then we cannot be "intolerant" of anything at all in other cultures, no not honour killings, no not slavery, no not murdering albinos to harvest their body parts, no not anything. Because as long as we display the slightest defects, we have no right to criticize others. That's what you're saying, correct dan?

I'd say that... but it's funny that in all of your above extreme examples, you didn't even include the Burqa.

Or are you implying that the Burqa represents all of the above in some magical way?

Why can't people control their own emotions and view the subject objectively?

"You Can't allow Burqas! They're Oppressive, no women enjoys them, no women in their right mind would ever choose to wear one... Someone has to speak for those who can't speak for themselves......"

"You can't allow abortions, they fetus is a human and is alive, it feels pain and suffers a lot when aborted.... Someone has to speak for those who can't speak for themselves......"

"You can't allow the eating and killing of cute widdle am'nimals.... they cry and scream like humans do..... Someone has to speak for those who can't speak for themselves......"



Always gotta admire the self righteous

[Deadeye]

Quote by: Nono If. Naturally, many of the women wearing these things are the victims of "arranged" marriages, resistance to which can bring penalties from the family going as far as murder. This happens. To me, your reasoning is a bit like sailing past a lifeboat full of people and saying "Well, if they like bobbing around out here, far be it from me to disturb them."

If we polled all American women of marriageable age and asked them how many would like to be married to a Muslim man and then live in a Muslim country someplace, I wonder how many would sign up?

Not many, I'll wager.

We all know the reason why don't we.

[Deadeye]

Quote by: Nono Let's take this to its logical conclusion: You are saying that until we purge our own culture of every single objectionable aspect (overly stiff upper lip, whatever) then we cannot be "intolerant" of anything at all in other cultures, no not honour killings, no not slavery, no not murdering albinos to harvest their body parts, no not anything. Because as long as we display the slightest defects, we have no right to criticize others. That's what you're saying, correct dan?

I don't like the things you've listed above, except maybe for the part about murdering albinos for their body parts. Someone must be murdering albinos hereabouts, because I haven't seen any around lately. I guess someone got to them before I could.

Now that you mention it; it's been hard to find a good slave for sale as well. If you want one you have to go all the way to Africa, and even then it's hell getting it through customs.

[NoJingoLingo]

Quote by: GeminiBrian Already provided. Keep up.

Sorry, I went back through the thread up to your message and could find no link that to any medical study which declares your statement. Could you provide that link again please? Thanks.

[NoJingoLingo]

Quote by: GeminiBrian You missed the point. The burka is just as much a symbol of the way women have been traditionally been bullied by men as the other 3 examples. I never said it was torture - and neither was the scold's bridle or the chastity belt designed to torture - only to assert dominance and humiliation. As for the ducking stool, it, too, symbolises the same thing - in this case, the male hysteria against female witches - something that led to many hundreds of thousand cruel executions... Even now, Sharia law demands that an unfaithful wife may be stoned to death or beheaded - no vain threat, either, since such sentences have been carried out in Islamic countries very recently. If my appeal is emotional, I don't apologise - maybe the humane response to blatant female oppression and misogyny ought to apply to the emotions - if not, you are clearly prepared to put up with any outrage without a murmur - either that or your head is stuck in the sand.

I didn't miss your point at all, in fact I believe I nailed it as an emotional appeal. The fact is that the Burka is traditional attire for a specific religion. You are perfectly free to rail against it's use just as I am free to rail against xian traditional trappings. Back to the point of the OP. France has the right to make laws for it's country as it sees fit. I guess, I have nothing more to input on the topic.

[Deadeye]

Quote by: NoJingoLingo I didn't miss your point at all, in fact I believe I nailed it as an emotional appeal. The fact is that the Burka is traditional attire for a specific religion.

No it is you who has missed the point entirely. The very real fact is cultures who require women to wear a burka are badly abusing those women.

The same applies to the practice of circumcising young women.

Both practices brutalize women, and women of all nations should rally for the banning of these practices, cultural or not.

I don't care what their religions dictate; the practice is wrong, not to mention unhealthy and demeaning.

[tinybear]

Hey folks, have you heard of foot binding?

Foot binding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Men have bullied women for centuries. It's shocking remnants of such bullying still exist in this day and age.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: Deadeye No it is you who has missed the point entirely. The very real fact is cultures who require women to wear a burka are badly abusing those women. The same applies to the practice of circumcising young women. Both practices brutalize women, and women of all nations should rally for the banning of these practices, cultural or not. I don't care what their religions dictate; the practice is wrong, not to mention unhealthy and demeaning.

Not often we agree, Deadeye! - Let's not make a habit of it though...

[tinybear]

Well, if even the two of you can agree, then it must be right.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: tinybear Well, if even the two of you can agree, then it must be right.

You can be very wise sometimes, tiny...

ps. Just finished reading your links on foot-binding - I knew it was a horrific practice, but not quite as bad as I now see it was.

Thanks for providing this relevant contribution to a debate on what is, after all, entirely about female subjugation, and not about fashion.

[tinybear]

Yeah foot binding has been part of Chinese culture for centuries. But do I think it's worthy of 'respect'? Noooo.

[princessme23]

footbinding is to do with attaining beauty the burka is not.
but it was interesting to read this article and the similarities between footbinding and breast implants.........

The Writings of Connie Folleth » 1,000 Years of Footbinding

what some people will do for beauty........!