Burkas in France

[GeminiBrian]

delete

[Praxius]

Quote by: Nono If. Naturally, many of the women wearing these things are the victims of "arranged" marriages, resistance to which can bring penalties from the family going as far as murder. This happens.

Yeah it happens.... just like a christian father beating their children with their belt if they don't sit properly and pray at dinner the way they expect them to.

Just like christians who think God or Jesus tells them to go and chop up their children or lock them in the basement away from all the evil doer's at school and the neighborhood and make them pee in jugs because a toilet is a sin.

This happens.

The difference is you tend to use your examples to generalize the entire culture.... and because you don't understand the mentality behind the veil, esspecially those who have no issue with them, it must be oppression, it must be a human right's violation.... those poor poor women.

Yes.... we should all stand up together and demand that all their women switch to thongs and strips of tape, if nothing at all....... we must liberate them so that they can freely expose themselves to the rest of us like they should!!!!

Last I heard, not all women enjoy guys staring at them for long periods of time, or giving out little hoots and whistles..... I know, crazy but true.

To me, your reasoning is a bit like sailing past a lifeboat full of people and saying "Well, if they like bobbing around out here, far be it from me to disturb them."

If they're not asking for your help and enjoying themselves, you'd be right..... keep on moving. Sometimes people don't want your help, let alone ask for it.

[Praxius]

Quote by: GeminiBrian Spot the odd one out.

Hey, did you ever see the old Christian Chastity belt for teenaged boys to make sure they didn't get erections? The ones with the spikes that are placed around the base of the penis and when the penis swells, the spikes drive into the tissue?

But I'd say the odd one out is the Burqa, as she simply looks like a ninja.

Hey! Maybe we should also fight for Ninjas everywhere too..... poor oppressed ninjas in their clothing that covers everything except their eyes..... tisk tisk

[dan4reason]

Quote by: GeminiBrian So have men, but have you ever seen one stupid enough to wear one?

I do not think it is right to say that other cultures traditions are "stupid". In our culture we let our teenage girls dress like sluts. That is the complaint from other countries. What would you say about that?

[Nono]

*I* would say Yes, it's true, a lot of them dress like sluts, and it's pathetic.

Then I would ask you this: What's your point?

[GeminiBrian]

[QUOTE]

Quote by: Praxius Hey, did you ever see the old Christian Chastity belt for teenaged boys to make sure they didn't get erections? The ones with the spikes that are placed around the base of the penis and when the penis swells, the spikes drive into the tissue?

Yep! - I'm still wearing mine...

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: dan4reason I do not think it is right to say that other cultures traditions are "stupid". In our culture we let our teenage girls dress like sluts. That is the complaint from other countries. What would you say about that?

At least the "teenage sluts" don't get rickets from lack of sunlight or chronic respiratory problems (both well-known side-effects of wearing the burka) - and as far as I know their brothers or husbands don't strangle them for bringing dishonour on the family.

ps. and its more difficult to conceal shop-lifted goods when you're wearing only a skimpy top, a thong and very little else. . .

[NoJingoLingo]

Quote by: Nono If. Naturally, many of the women wearing these things are the victims of "arranged" marriages, resistance to which can bring penalties from the family going as far as murder. This happens. To me, your reasoning is a bit like sailing past a lifeboat full of people and saying "Well, if they like bobbing around out here, far be it from me to disturb them."

Right, if. So don't take a stance based on an if.

You're analogy is faulty. The lifeboat of people are not free to stop bobbing in the water or it may not be a lifeboat after all but a traditional ritual that you don't fully understand. More information may be needed before a course of action is taken.

[grandpa]

Quote by: NoJingoLingo Right, if. So don't take a stance based on an if.

I understand your point, but a stance should obviously be based on reasons, and conditionality is a reason.

Grandpa h.

[Nono]

Quote by: Jingo So don't take a stance based on an if.

But that's what you do -- you take things on face value and run them through a primitive libertarian analysis and bingo it's all a matter of individual rights.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Nono But that's what you do -- you take things on face value and run them through a primitive libertarian program and bingo it's all a matter of individual rights.

I was hoping to agree with your response, but the point couldn't be further away from you. I understand conditionality, and if people are forced to wear Burkas, someone in that community should intervene. However, the idea that France should ban Burkas is no better than imposing a religion on a population.
Did Stalin create a perfect culture by trying to regulate it? No, and France is not going to do so now. In fact, it's already creating problems with its proposals, and not just with me. The objections extend beyond "a primitive libertarian program" (whatever that even means). They are quite general, and individual rights do come into play.

Grandpa h.

[NoJingoLingo]

Quote by: GeminiBrian

The difference is that the woman in the Burka can remove it if she wishes. This display you've made is an appeal to emotion which is a logical fallacy. You're trying to make the viewer believe that a Burka is akin to some medieval torture device. It is not.

[NoJingoLingo]

Quote by: GeminiBrian At least the "teenage sluts" don't get rickets from lack of sunlight or chronic respiratory problems (both well-known side-effects of wearing the burka) - and as far as I know their brothers or husbands don't strangle them for bringing dishonour on the family. ps. and its more difficult to conceal shop-lifted goods when you're wearing only a skimpy top, a thong and very little else. . .

I've never heard of these things being well known side-effects of wearing a burka. Got a credible link?

[dan4reason]

Quote by: Nono *I* would say Yes, it's true, a lot of them dress like sluts, and it's pathetic. Then I would ask you this: What's your point?

My point, yes. My point is, we cannot be intolerant of their culture when our culture has some problems too. Our culture has moral and ethical corruption.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: NoJingoLingo I've never heard of these things being well known side-effects of wearing a burka. Got a credible link?

Already provided. Keep up.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: NoJingoLingo The difference is that the woman in the Burka can remove it if she wishes. This display you've made is an appeal to emotion which is a logical fallacy. You're trying to make the viewer believe that a Burka is akin to some medieval torture device. It is not.

You missed the point. The burka is just as much a symbol of the way women have been traditionally been bullied by men as the other 3 examples. I never said it was torture - and neither was the scold's bridle or the chastity belt designed to torture - only to assert dominance and humiliation.

As for the ducking stool, it, too, symbolises the same thing - in this case, the male hysteria against female witches - something that led to many hundreds of thousand cruel executions... Even now, Sharia law demands that an unfaithful wife may be stoned to death or beheaded - no vain threat, either, since such sentences have been carried out in Islamic countries very recently.

If my appeal is emotional, I don't apologise - maybe the humane response to blatant female oppression and misogyny ought to apply to the emotions - if not, you are clearly prepared to put up with any outrage without a murmur - either that or your head is stuck in the sand.

[L00zer]

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I know I shouldn't be replying to this, but I've been laughing out loud for the last couple minutes after reading a serious, important thread and seeing that smack in the middle.

I can't say I agree with France's policy on religious expression.There are women who wear the burka and other types of head coverings out of modesty. It is required in more religious parts of Judaism that a married woman cover her hair, but I know woman who do so not because of those rules. I am sure there are some muslim women who wear a burka because they simply feel more comfterable in wearing the ultra-modest peice of clothing. This is undoubtedly a tiny number, however it is the principal of religious freedom that I feel is being violated in France.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: L00zer This is undoubtedly a tiny number, however it is the principal of religious freedom that I feel is being violated in France.

Once again - the burka is not a religious requirement (the Qur'an doesn't contain a singe reference to it) - it is purely a cultural thing that has gone a lot further than the Qur'an's simple instruction to dress modestly.

It is important to remember this distinction because religious and cultural traditions are two different things, even though they often overlap. Thus freedom to practice one's religion is not the issue in this case - and that's not affected by banning the burka. It can be legitimately be banned without violating any religion.

[L00zer]

Quote by: GeminiBrian Once again - the burka is not a religious requirement (the Qur'an doesn't contain a singe reference to it) - it is purely a cultural thing that has gone a lot further than the Qur'an's simple instruction to dress modestly. It is important to remember this distinction because religious and cultural traditions are two different things, even though they often overlap. Thus freedom to practice one's religion is not the issue in this case - and that's not affected by banning the burka. It can be legitimately be banned without violating any religion.

I do not believe that the Qur'an is the only thing that determines whether or not the burqa is religious or not. While it may not be referenced to in Islam's holy book, I am sure that if one goes to places in the Middle East one can see that now, it is a religious article of clothing. Similarly, a yalmulka, or kippah, is not talked about in the Torah. Yet Jews like myself always wear it (not showering, sleeping, etc., but you get my point).

[Praxius]

Quote by: Nono *I* would say Yes, it's true, a lot of them dress like sluts, and it's pathetic. Then I would ask you this: What's your point?

The whole point is that perhaps you should fix your own problems in your own society and culture before finger pointing at others and what you think are their problems that you feel need to be fixed.