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castille · Nov 19, 2003, 07:41 am

Communism has been tried in Russia, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Hungary, Poland, Czechslovakia, Yugoslavia, Rumania, East Germany....and more.

What is the result?

In Poland, workers rose against their Communist masters (how ironic!).

In Hungary, a full-scale rebellion took place in 1956, joined by hundreds of thousands of Hungarians. Crushed by the Soviets.

In Czechslovakia, youths launched gurellia attacks against their Communist masters.

In North Korea, their Communist leader spends more money on statues devoted to him and anti-American propaganda than food for the starving masses.

In East Germany, thousands of Communists try to flee to democratic and captalist West Germany.

In the Soviet Union, millions are murdered by death squads because they weren't Communist enough. More are denounced by their neighbours (hey thats pretty democratic eh?) and executed.

In Africa, socialist governments are responsible for the murder of over 30 million people.

If Communism has failed....will it ever succeed? Or will we have to risk another Stalin, another Kim il Song, another massacre, another genocide?

Communism HAS been tried....its just never succeeded. Are you willing to risk 40 years in a Siberian slave camp just to try out Communism?

G. Adams · Nov 19, 2003, 10:26 am

Are you willing to allow a million deaths a day due to avoidable starvation, or are you going to try and help them?

Impenitent · Nov 19, 2003, 01:33 pm

avoidable starvation? ... move them out of the desert to where the food is... or enslave the world to your brand of communism... which is more practical? and since when is it your right to choose how anyone else should live their life?

G. Adams · Nov 19, 2003, 02:35 pm

I thought you didn't believe in any rights but that which the poweful set?

Impenitent · Nov 19, 2003, 03:32 pm

G

I don't... might makes right... and you don't have the right to impose your will upon anyone because you haven't the strength...

G. Adams · Nov 19, 2003, 03:48 pm

Ahh, so if a communist revolution succeeded, then you would support it, not ideologically, but simply because it is the dominant force?

Impenitent · Nov 19, 2003, 03:53 pm

I would have no choice but live under the tyranny of the powerful communists... I would never support tyranny nor would the workers of the world...

but the capitalist revolution has succeeded and is continuing quite well...

G. Adams · Nov 19, 2003, 03:57 pm

If might makes right, and the communists were mightier, then you would be against what is, in your definition, right. So you would be against yourself?

Impenitent · Nov 19, 2003, 04:00 pm

no not at all... the mightier gets to claim what is right... I wouldn't be against myself, I'd be against what they claim is right...

G. Adams · Nov 19, 2003, 04:12 pm

Yet you said

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent)
you don't have the right to impose your will upon anyone because you haven't the strength...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Your switching 'a right', something inherent to X, for 'what is right', as in law or imposition of will.

Impenitent · Nov 19, 2003, 04:30 pm

not at all... the communists will impose what they think is right because they will have the strength... "rights" are an imposition of will... they (and you) can impose all the will you like to establish the right, but as long as I have the strength to resist, I have the power to deny the "right"... it devolves into a contest of strength...

laserkid · Nov 21, 2003, 05:41 am

I have to wonder how communism will end "preventable" hunger

But that said true marxist communism might work if we ecver got there.

But I do not personally believe we WILL get there for a few reasons

1. Freedom - it is the base desire of most if not all people to be free to speak their mind and live their lives - yet most communist attempts styfle the right of free speech

2. Elections - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If Communism allowed the people its supposed to empower to elect their leaders - in order to prevent one set of leaders from becoming corrupt it might help.

3. "Equal work for equal pay" a good phrase to show why its doomed to fail - people have no motivation to work harder if no matter how much or little work they do they are all paid the same? Should people be paid the same for equal work? Yes. But not for more or less work than someone else.

4. Government owned buisiness - Im sorry but if the government owns everything why is someone going to work for new things? People generally want to try for things, and if they arent given the chance it causes problems

Could Communism work? Yes but in my opinion one of two things needs to happen first (either that or the 4 things I've mentioned need to be adressed) - people become angels and thus work in the system of communism naturally and all are out for eachother. That or unlimited resources become available - if theres unlimited resources available then the need for money pretty much disappears and thus the issues surrounding that are negated. Neither are very likely but hey I suppose anything is possible.

castille · Nov 21, 2003, 10:38 am

Actually, as a capitalist, I AM helping out people living in poverty in Asia. I recently started up a new business, a magazine publication for young entrepreneurs, releasing it in China, Australia, and potentially the US.

How will this help the starving unemployed masses of Asia? By encouraging entrepreneurship and youth to start businesses, it increases the amount of job spaces available. Those eager young people starting businesses will one day grow large enough to employ workers. The taxes they generate will give the government more money to provide welfare for the unemployed....and so forth.

(Of course, Americans will then whine about Asians being too "good at working" and "stealing" their jobs, I guess the world is really weird!)

On the other hand, what are Socialist Protestors doing? Protesting in the city streets isn't going to help poor people. Millions in Africa are dying, and what are idiot socialists/Communists doing?

Protesting on the streets. Chanting solgans. Wow, thats a great help to starving kids.

G. Adams · Nov 21, 2003, 01:54 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (laserkid,)
I have to wonder how communism will end "preventable" hunger

But that said true marxist communism might work if we ecver got there.

But I do not personally believe we WILL get there for a few reasons

1. Freedom - it is the base desire of most if not all people to be free to speak their mind and live their lives - yet most communist attempts styfle the right of free speech

2. Elections - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If Communism allowed the people its supposed to empower to elect their leaders - in order to prevent one set of leaders from becoming corrupt it might help.

3. "Equal work for equal pay" a good phrase to show why its doomed to fail - people have no motivation to work harder if no matter how much or little work they do they are all paid the same? Should people be paid the same for equal work? Yes. But not for more or less work than someone else.

4. Government owned buisiness - Im sorry but if the government owns everything why is someone going to work for new things? People generally want to try for things, and if they arent given the chance it causes problems

Could Communism work? Yes but in my opinion one of two things needs to happen first (either that or the 4 things I've mentioned need to be adressed) - people become angels and thus work in the system of communism naturally and all are out for eachother. That or unlimited resources become available - if theres unlimited resources available then the need for money pretty much disappears and thus the issues surrounding that are negated. Neither are very likely but hey I suppose anything is possible.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

one by one...

1. Communists don't call for the end of free speech, or its limiting. Anyone who does has no right to call themself a communist.

2. Communists do support elections and democracy throughout all of society.

3. Its because currently people can make vast amounts of money for much less work that many people become communists. Despite all this talk by castille that capitalists work Oh so hard, I know people who work three jobs to make ends meet. It isn't right.

4. I'm totally against government owned bussiness, as are communists, communists believe in industry being owned by those who work in it.

communism will never work while people are so cynical. The people who want it to work have work hard to make it so. I bet the founders of capitalism were laughed at by their opposition, being told that the working class were too stupid to find work for themselves, that they had to forced into work by their masters. That the middle classes couldn't run society because they were too mercentile, not caring about anything but their money. Yet Britain and the US turned capitalist, then france followed, spain, germany etc all changed because they saw it could work. If communists worked hard enough to make the system work , like the protestant pilgrims did in the US and the puritans of england, it could work too.

G. Adams · Nov 21, 2003, 02:10 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Actually, as a capitalist, I AM helping out people living in poverty in Asia. I recently started up a new business, a magazine publication for young entrepreneurs, releasing it in China, Australia, and potentially the US.

How will this help the starving unemployed masses of Asia? By encouraging entrepreneurship and youth to start businesses, it increases the amount of job spaces available. Those eager young people starting businesses will one day grow large enough to employ workers. The taxes they generate will give the government more money to provide welfare for the unemployed....and so forth.

(Of course, Americans will then whine about Asians being too "good at working" and "stealing" their jobs, I guess the world is really weird!)

On the other hand, what are Socialist Protestors doing? Protesting in the city streets isn't going to help poor people. Millions in Africa are dying, and what are idiot socialists/Communists doing?

Protesting on the streets. Chanting solgans. Wow, thats a great help to starving kids.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Don't you get it? Your suggesting all poor people should become entrepeneurs. If they all became entrepeneurs, then there would be no-one to do any real work. Not only that, most of those people would fail.

Look, let me make it basic for you.

Say the sum total of wealth in the world is 100. There are 100 people trying to get rich. Now if they all succeed, they will all have 1 each. But if one does slightly better, makes 2, everyone else loses a little. But because in real life, what happens in 5 make 60, and 95 people squabble over 40.

One individual can get out of poverty through such ventures, but the working class cannot, because of simple economics.

Impenitent · Nov 21, 2003, 04:52 pm

only if the total sum of the wealth was static...

it isn't!

Bayou · Nov 21, 2003, 08:42 pm

Because what defines wealth cannot be wholy quantified through a monetary system.
Such is the inherent flaw in the capitalist system= the beleif that everything has a base monetary value.

nature of reality · Nov 21, 2003, 09:16 pm

So lets get this straight...

The guy who invents something and makes a lot of money, according to you, is doing so at the expense of the guy who didn't invent or improve anything? And your goal is to reverse this?

also your communism created artificial famines in russia.... Don't give me they weren't communists crap, you still haven't explained how your economy works without a market or command.

They were as close to your precious ideal of death humans could get without dieing. Well some of them at least not dieing.

Bayou · Nov 21, 2003, 10:18 pm

Well lets see, guy invents motorised arm- 10,000 guys who didnt invent or improve technology, but were smart hard workers gets laid off in Flint Michigan.
Not that the inventor should be taking the brunt of the blame, the Corporations who made the decision should take the main tax load for the unemployement payments the govenrment will be making now: as the corporatti's profit the most from the use of the robot arm.
Doesnt mean that the taxes on the inventors royalte checks shouldnt be making a small contribution to the Unemployement Insurance.
Main point is that a device or invention that improves something in an application for the economic system is not neccessarily beneficial to social, pshycological or environmental systems.
It's not about reversing anything- it's about realising the limits of a system and creating the nesseccary counterbalance to reach equilibrium.

laserkid · Nov 21, 2003, 10:48 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (laserkid,)
I have to wonder how communism will end "preventable" hunger

But that said true marxist communism might work if we ecver got there.

But I do not personally believe we WILL get there for a few reasons

1. Freedom - it is the base desire of most if not all people to be free to speak their mind and live their lives - yet most communist attempts styfle the right of free speech

2. Elections - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If Communism allowed the people its supposed to empower to elect their leaders - in order to prevent one set of leaders from becoming corrupt it might help.

3. "Equal work for equal pay" a good phrase to show why its doomed to fail - people have no motivation to work harder if no matter how much or little work they do they are all paid the same? Should people be paid the same for equal work? Yes. But not for more or less work than someone else.

4. Government owned buisiness - Im sorry but if the government owns everything why is someone going to work for new things? People generally want to try for things, and if they arent given the chance it causes problems

Could Communism work? Yes but in my opinion one of two things needs to happen first (either that or the 4 things I've mentioned need to be adressed) - people become angels and thus work in the system of communism naturally and all are out for eachother. That or unlimited resources become available - if theres unlimited resources available then the need for money pretty much disappears and thus the issues surrounding that are negated. Neither are very likely but hey I suppose anything is possible.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

one by one...

1. Communists don't call for the end of free speech, or its limiting. Anyone who does has no right to call themself a communist.

2. Communists do support elections and democracy throughout all of society.

3. Its because currently people can make vast amounts of money for much less work that many people become communists. Despite all this talk by castille that capitalists work Oh so hard, I know people who work three jobs to make ends meet. It isn't right.

4. I'm totally against government owned bussiness, as are communists, communists believe in industry being owned by those who work in it.

communism will never work while people are so cynical. The people who want it to work have work hard to make it so. I bet the founders of capitalism were laughed at by their opposition, being told that the working class were too stupid to find work for themselves, that they had to forced into work by their masters. That the middle classes couldn't run society because they were too mercentile, not caring about anything but their money. Yet Britain and the US turned capitalist, then france followed, spain, germany etc all changed because they saw it could work. If communists worked hard enough to make the system work , like the protestant pilgrims did in the US and the puritans of england, it could work too.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

If thats what communism is then I'd love to see it. Course that means communism hasnt happened at all yet.

Nov 19, 2003, 07:41 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Communism has been tried in Russia, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Hungary, Poland, Czechslovakia, Yugoslavia, Rumania, East Germany....and more. What is the result? In Poland, workers rose against their Communist masters (how ironic!). In Hungary, a full-scale rebellion took place in 1956, joined by hundreds of thousands of Hungarians. Crushed by the Soviets. In Czechslovakia, youths launched gurellia attacks against their Communist masters. In North Korea, their Communist leader spends more money on statues devoted to him and anti-American propaganda than food for the starving masses. In East Germany, thousands of Communists try to flee to democratic and captalist West Germany. In the Soviet Union, millions are murdered by death squads because they weren't Communist enough. More are denounced by their neighbours (hey thats pretty democratic eh?) and executed. In Africa, socialist governments are responsible for the murder of over 30 million people. If Communism has failed....will it ever succeed? Or will we have to risk another Stalin, another Kim il Song, another massacre, another genocide? Communism HAS been tried....its just never succeeded. Are you willing to risk 40 years in a Siberian slave camp just to try out Communism? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 19, 2003, 10:26 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	Are you willing to allow a million deaths a day due to avoidable starvation, or are you going to try and help them? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 19, 2003, 01:33 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	avoidable starvation? ... move them out of the desert to where the food is... or enslave the world to your brand of communism... which is more practical? and since when is it your right to choose how anyone else should live their life? "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 19, 2003, 02:35 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	I thought you didn't believe in any rights but that which the poweful set? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 19, 2003, 03:32 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	G I don't... might makes right... and you don't have the right to impose your will upon anyone because you haven't the strength... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 19, 2003, 03:48 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	Ahh, so if a communist revolution succeeded, then you would support it, not ideologically, but simply because it is the dominant force? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 19, 2003, 03:53 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	I would have no choice but live under the tyranny of the powerful communists... I would never support tyranny nor would the workers of the world... but the capitalist revolution has succeeded and is continuing quite well... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 19, 2003, 03:57 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	If might makes right, and the communists were mightier, then you would be against what is, in your definition, right. So you would be against yourself? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 19, 2003, 04:00 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	no not at all... the mightier gets to claim what is right... I wouldn't be against myself, I'd be against what they claim is right... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 19, 2003, 04:12 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	Yet you said </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent) you don't have the right to impose your will upon anyone because you haven't the strength...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Your switching 'a right', something inherent to X, for 'what is right', as in law or imposition of will. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 19, 2003, 04:30 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	not at all... the communists will impose what they think is right because they will have the strength... "rights" are an imposition of will... they (and you) can impose all the will you like to establish the right, but as long as I have the strength to resist, I have the power to deny the "right"... it devolves into a contest of strength... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 21, 2003, 05:41 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
laserkid Molten Ash Location: Sore Wa Himitsu Desu Posts: 80	I have to wonder how communism will end "preventable" hunger But that said true marxist communism might work if we ecver got there. But I do not personally believe we WILL get there for a few reasons 1. Freedom - it is the base desire of most if not all people to be free to speak their mind and live their lives - yet most communist attempts styfle the right of free speech 2. Elections - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If Communism allowed the people its supposed to empower to elect their leaders - in order to prevent one set of leaders from becoming corrupt it might help. 3. "Equal work for equal pay" a good phrase to show why its doomed to fail - people have no motivation to work harder if no matter how much or little work they do they are all paid the same? Should people be paid the same for equal work? Yes. But not for more or less work than someone else. 4. Government owned buisiness - Im sorry but if the government owns everything why is someone going to work for new things? People generally want to try for things, and if they arent given the chance it causes problems Could Communism work? Yes but in my opinion one of two things needs to happen first (either that or the 4 things I've mentioned need to be adressed) - people become angels and thus work in the system of communism naturally and all are out for eachother. That or unlimited resources become available - if theres unlimited resources available then the need for money pretty much disappears and thus the issues surrounding that are negated. Neither are very likely but hey I suppose anything is possible. "That is a Secret." -Xellos

Nov 21, 2003, 10:38 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Actually, as a capitalist, I AM helping out people living in poverty in Asia. I recently started up a new business, a magazine publication for young entrepreneurs, releasing it in China, Australia, and potentially the US. How will this help the starving unemployed masses of Asia? By encouraging entrepreneurship and youth to start businesses, it increases the amount of job spaces available. Those eager young people starting businesses will one day grow large enough to employ workers. The taxes they generate will give the government more money to provide welfare for the unemployed....and so forth. (Of course, Americans will then whine about Asians being too "good at working" and "stealing" their jobs, I guess the world is really weird!) On the other hand, what are Socialist Protestors doing? Protesting in the city streets isn't going to help poor people. Millions in Africa are dying, and what are idiot socialists/Communists doing? Protesting on the streets. Chanting solgans. Wow, thats a great help to starving kids. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 21, 2003, 01:54 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (laserkid,) I have to wonder how communism will end "preventable" hunger But that said true marxist communism might work if we ecver got there. But I do not personally believe we WILL get there for a few reasons 1. Freedom - it is the base desire of most if not all people to be free to speak their mind and live their lives - yet most communist attempts styfle the right of free speech 2. Elections - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If Communism allowed the people its supposed to empower to elect their leaders - in order to prevent one set of leaders from becoming corrupt it might help. 3. "Equal work for equal pay" a good phrase to show why its doomed to fail - people have no motivation to work harder if no matter how much or little work they do they are all paid the same? Should people be paid the same for equal work? Yes. But not for more or less work than someone else. 4. Government owned buisiness - Im sorry but if the government owns everything why is someone going to work for new things? People generally want to try for things, and if they arent given the chance it causes problems Could Communism work? Yes but in my opinion one of two things needs to happen first (either that or the 4 things I've mentioned need to be adressed) - people become angels and thus work in the system of communism naturally and all are out for eachother. That or unlimited resources become available - if theres unlimited resources available then the need for money pretty much disappears and thus the issues surrounding that are negated. Neither are very likely but hey I suppose anything is possible.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> one by one... 1. Communists don't call for the end of free speech, or its limiting. Anyone who does has no right to call themself a communist. 2. Communists do support elections and democracy throughout all of society. 3. Its because currently people can make vast amounts of money for much less work that many people become communists. Despite all this talk by castille that capitalists work Oh so hard, I know people who work three jobs to make ends meet. It isn't right. 4. I'm totally against government owned bussiness, as are communists, communists believe in industry being owned by those who work in it. communism will never work while people are so cynical. The people who want it to work have work hard to make it so. I bet the founders of capitalism were laughed at by their opposition, being told that the working class were too stupid to find work for themselves, that they had to forced into work by their masters. That the middle classes couldn't run society because they were too mercentile, not caring about anything but their money. Yet Britain and the US turned capitalist, then france followed, spain, germany etc all changed because they saw it could work. If communists worked hard enough to make the system work , like the protestant pilgrims did in the US and the puritans of england, it could work too. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 21, 2003, 02:10 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Actually, as a capitalist, I AM helping out people living in poverty in Asia. I recently started up a new business, a magazine publication for young entrepreneurs, releasing it in China, Australia, and potentially the US. How will this help the starving unemployed masses of Asia? By encouraging entrepreneurship and youth to start businesses, it increases the amount of job spaces available. Those eager young people starting businesses will one day grow large enough to employ workers. The taxes they generate will give the government more money to provide welfare for the unemployed....and so forth. (Of course, Americans will then whine about Asians being too "good at working" and "stealing" their jobs, I guess the world is really weird!) On the other hand, what are Socialist Protestors doing? Protesting in the city streets isn't going to help poor people. Millions in Africa are dying, and what are idiot socialists/Communists doing? Protesting on the streets. Chanting solgans. Wow, thats a great help to starving kids.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Don't you get it? Your suggesting all poor people should become entrepeneurs. If they all became entrepeneurs, then there would be no-one to do any real work. Not only that, most of those people would fail. Look, let me make it basic for you. Say the sum total of wealth in the world is 100. There are 100 people trying to get rich. Now if they all succeed, they will all have 1 each. But if one does slightly better, makes 2, everyone else loses a little. But because in real life, what happens in 5 make 60, and 95 people squabble over 40. One individual can get out of poverty through such ventures, but the working class cannot, because of simple economics. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 21, 2003, 04:52 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	only if the total sum of the wealth was static... it isn't! "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 21, 2003, 08:42 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	Because what defines wealth cannot be wholy quantified through a monetary system. Such is the inherent flaw in the capitalist system= the beleif that everything has a base monetary value. <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Nov 21, 2003, 09:16 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
nature of reality Molten Ash Posts: 134	So lets get this straight... The guy who invents something and makes a lot of money, according to you, is doing so at the expense of the guy who didn't invent or improve anything? And your goal is to reverse this? also your communism created artificial famines in russia.... Don't give me they weren't communists crap, you still haven't explained how your economy works without a market or command. They were as close to your precious ideal of death humans could get without dieing. Well some of them at least not dieing. Whats wrong with Liberty?

Nov 21, 2003, 10:18 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	Well lets see, guy invents motorised arm- 10,000 guys who didnt invent or improve technology, but were smart hard workers gets laid off in Flint Michigan. Not that the inventor should be taking the brunt of the blame, the Corporations who made the decision should take the main tax load for the unemployement payments the govenrment will be making now: as the corporatti's profit the most from the use of the robot arm. Doesnt mean that the taxes on the inventors royalte checks shouldnt be making a small contribution to the Unemployement Insurance. Main point is that a device or invention that improves something in an application for the economic system is not neccessarily beneficial to social, pshycological or environmental systems. It's not about reversing anything- it's about realising the limits of a system and creating the nesseccary counterbalance to reach equilibrium. <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Nov 21, 2003, 10:48 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
laserkid Molten Ash Location: Sore Wa Himitsu Desu Posts: 80	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (laserkid,) I have to wonder how communism will end "preventable" hunger But that said true marxist communism might work if we ecver got there. But I do not personally believe we WILL get there for a few reasons 1. Freedom - it is the base desire of most if not all people to be free to speak their mind and live their lives - yet most communist attempts styfle the right of free speech 2. Elections - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If Communism allowed the people its supposed to empower to elect their leaders - in order to prevent one set of leaders from becoming corrupt it might help. 3. "Equal work for equal pay" a good phrase to show why its doomed to fail - people have no motivation to work harder if no matter how much or little work they do they are all paid the same? Should people be paid the same for equal work? Yes. But not for more or less work than someone else. 4. Government owned buisiness - Im sorry but if the government owns everything why is someone going to work for new things? People generally want to try for things, and if they arent given the chance it causes problems Could Communism work? Yes but in my opinion one of two things needs to happen first (either that or the 4 things I've mentioned need to be adressed) - people become angels and thus work in the system of communism naturally and all are out for eachother. That or unlimited resources become available - if theres unlimited resources available then the need for money pretty much disappears and thus the issues surrounding that are negated. Neither are very likely but hey I suppose anything is possible.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> one by one... 1. Communists don't call for the end of free speech, or its limiting. Anyone who does has no right to call themself a communist. 2. Communists do support elections and democracy throughout all of society. 3. Its because currently people can make vast amounts of money for much less work that many people become communists. Despite all this talk by castille that capitalists work Oh so hard, I know people who work three jobs to make ends meet. It isn't right. 4. I'm totally against government owned bussiness, as are communists, communists believe in industry being owned by those who work in it. communism will never work while people are so cynical. The people who want it to work have work hard to make it so. I bet the founders of capitalism were laughed at by their opposition, being told that the working class were too stupid to find work for themselves, that they had to forced into work by their masters. That the middle classes couldn't run society because they were too mercentile, not caring about anything but their money. Yet Britain and the US turned capitalist, then france followed, spain, germany etc all changed because they saw it could work. If communists worked hard enough to make the system work , like the protestant pilgrims did in the US and the puritans of england, it could work too.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If thats what communism is then I'd love to see it. Course that means communism hasnt happened at all yet. "That is a Secret." -Xellos