Modern Timeline of Palestine

[linda_mary_13]

Quote by: Diogenes It was supported by the University of São Paulo who , as far as I am aware, has no connections to Israel or Palestine. That is why I used 2 sources and not just one...one to verify the other.

Sao Paulo was settled by Germans. Their bias lives in the University.

[linda_mary_13]

This discussion is really pointless in the year 2009. Israel exists and it is not going anywhere. Mexico cries similarly, that the southwest belongs to Mexico. Sorry, Texas is part of these United States. It is irrelavant who settled there first, what is relevant is who is there today. What is relevant is what culture is in power. Look at the weakness of the Palestinian culture. It is a culture of hate recruiting hate. And you wonder why they roam aimlessly. There thoughts never lite on "good progress". They can't manage what they have, and yet want more. The Israelis owe them nothing, no new roads, no land, money or food. The Palestinians owe good progress to their children. They need to figure out how they can get along with the rest of the world, and crying about being losers is not working.

The Jews have their problems and are not perfect. No one is. Which state would you visit first, Israel or the Gaza. It's a no brainer. The Gaza is a dangerous place, because the culture is dangerous. It is only a culture of hate. Look with your own eyes what hatred does and produces. You pick up a stone and throw it at someone, don't cry when they kick your ass. This is basic life stuff. Why don't we get it.

My family had a small farm outside of Philly. The Blue Route took it. Do I spend the rest of my life living in the reality of what I lost or what is before my face and move on.

[Killroy]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 This discussion is really pointless in the year 2009. Look at the weakness of the Palestinian culture. And you wonder why they roam aimlessly. There thoughts never lite on "good progress".

You have got things mixed up
The Palestinians are not a nomadic people. You have posted about the wrong culture.

[Plus Ultra]

Mexico cries similarly, that the southwest belongs to Mexico. Sorry, Texas is part of these United States. It is irrelavant who settled there first, what is relevant is who is there today. What is relevant is what culture is in power.

Not at all.

About 2/3 of the US was once part of Spanish claims in America which spanned from Florida to Oregon. There is plenty of evidence of Spanish occupation long before the US apperared on the scene (the oldest standing structures anywhere in the US are Spanish missions and military installations built in California and Florida.

Mexico was "Nueva Espana" under Spanish nomenclature, and "technically" Mexico "stood in Spain's shoes" after the empire withdrew (1821). Thus, befiore united statians could claim anything west of the Mississippi/Missouri rivers account would have to be taken of prior claims by the Spanish (and Mexico as its succesor).

Texas was seized specifically under the "Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty" a document coerced from then Mexican president Santana under captivity. Documents signed under coercion are invalid.

[EscVelocity]

[quote=Plus Ultra;580825

Texas was seized specifically under the "Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty" a document coerced from then Mexican president Santana under captivity. Documents signed under coercion are invalid.[/quote]

The U.N. and UNSC was created to prevent such things from happening.

The United states is the reason Israel is allowed to get away their illegal land grubbing tactics.

The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. For the past several decades, however, and especially since the Six Day War in 1967, the centerpiece of U.S. Middle East policy has been its relationship with Israel. The combination of unwavering U.S. support for Israel and the related effort to spread democracy throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized U.S. security. *snip* Since 1982, the United States has vetoed 32 United Nations Security Council resolutions that were critical of Israel, a number greater than the combined total of vetoes cast by all the other Security Council members.7 It also blocks Arab states’ efforts to put Israel’s nuclear arsenal on the International Atomic Energy Agency’s agenda.8

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Researc...6_011_walt.pdf It's a PDF.

[Derach]

I agree the US shows dispropotionate support for Israel. Something like $500 for each US taxpayer goes directly into support of Israel. Plus shares intelligence, technology and helps in diplomatic ways. Worst of all is how public and unconditional the US policy towards Israel is. Seems like American politicians are all always standing at a podium vowing their support of Israel in the name of the 'war on terror' ... making it sound like Israel is fighting muslim extremists as a surrogate for the US because of 9/11. They somehow try to link every Israeli action to somehow protecting the US in the name of 'anti-terrorism'. Baloney.

[Plus Ultra]

Although the US does excessively support Israel, I have no doubt Israel would be wiped off the map and all Jews removed from there if it wasn't clear the US stood 100% behind Israel. Israel was attacked by neighboring countries a few times despite evident US support, its been well armed and supported since then and this hasn't happened again, but now they've got Iran trying to get a nuke that could hit Jerusalem, Saddam's efforts were curtailed when Israel attacked his nuclear reactor.

[EscVelocity]

I think Palestine, Israel and America would be better off If America supported both an Israel and Palestine state. Help both economically, and Use U.N peace keepers to aid both states in maintaining their borders, and control lawlessness. The U.N and U.S should have put forth their best effort in making Israel not seem like a threat to Arab nations. To make Israel the dominate power in the middle east, considering their agenda, makes them a target.

Middle East (including Israel/Palestine) UN Documents - Security Council Report

This link is nifty.

[Plus Ultra]

For gringan politicians there is little advantage in supporting a Palestine state and great political disadvantage in doing so. Major donors and politically influential sources support the Zionist entity, few endorse the Palestinian cause.

The UN has a lot of peacekeepers already deployed in the area:

UNTSO with 151 military observers; supported by 99 international civilian personnel and 130 local civilian staff, under Major-General Ian Campbell Gordon from Australia UNTSO: United Nations Truce Supervision Organization -Facts and Figures, in Jerusalem since 1948.

UNDOF with 1,041 troops from Austria, Canada, Croatia, India, Japan and Poland under Austrian Major-General Wolfgang Jilke) http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/undof/;
in the Golan Heights (since 1974).

and

UNIFIL with 12,733 military personnel from Belgium, Brunei, China, Croatia, Cyprus, El Salvador, France, FYR of Macedonia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guatemala, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Luxemburg, Malaysia, Nepal, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Sierra Leone, Slovenia, Spain, Tanzania and Turkey, supported by some 338 international civilian and 611 local civilian staff troops all under Italian Major-General Claudio Graziano, UNIFIL: United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon in Lebanon (since 1978),

[EscVelocity]

Eh, not in Gaza and the west bank.....

[dixon]

Quote by: Plus Ultra Texas was seized specifically under the "Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty" a document coerced from then Mexican president Santana under captivity. Documents signed under coercion are invalid.

That would make most national borders invalid.

[Plus Ultra]

That would make most national borders invalid.

No, most national boundaries are not disputed and were secured over time between neighboring countries with institutionalized processes and authorities to maintain and protect border markers and graphic representations of the boundaries on maps.

The annexation of about 2/3 of Mexico through the Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty was a particularly eggregious act. The president of Mexico was captured at the Alamo in Texas, held prisoner and while in captivity forced to sign this treaty ceding everything north of the current boundary to the US. There is no precedent and I don't know of any case since then of acquiring territory this way.

[Rog]

Quote by: linda_mary_13 Sao Paulo was settled by Germans. Their bias lives in the University.

hum??? try Portuguese.

[Killroy]

The Beginning - Initial Planning for Ethnic Cleansing In his preface, Pappe writes about the "Red House" in Tel-Aviv that became headquarters for the Hagana, the dominant Zionist underground paramilitary militia during the British Mandate period in Palestine between 1920 and 1948 when the Jewish state came into being. He details how David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, met with leading Zionists and young Jewish military officers on March 10, 1948 to finalize plans to ethnically cleanse Palestine that unfolded in the months that followed including "large-scale (deadly serious)intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning." The final master plan was called Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew) following plans A, B, and C preceding it. It was to be a war without mercy complying with what Ben-Gurion said in June, 1938 to the Jewish Agency Executive and never wavering from later: "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." Plan D became the way to do it. It included forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of unwanted Palestinian Arabs in urban and rural areas accompanied by an unknown number of others mass slaughtered to get it done. The goal was simple and straightforward - to create an exclusive Jewish state without an Arab presence by any means including mass-murder. Once begun, the whole ugly business took six months to complete. It expelled about 800,000 people, killed many others, and destroyed 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods in cities like Tel-Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem. The action was a clear case of ethnic cleansing that international law today calls a crime against humanity for which convicted Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged. So far Israelis have always remained immune from international law even though names of guilty leaders and those charged with implementing their orders are known as well as the crimes they committed. They included cold-blooded mass-murder; destruction of homes, villages and crops; rapes; other atrocities; and massacres of defenseless people given no quarter including women and children. The crimes were suppressed and expunged from official accounts as Israeli historiography cooked up the myth that Palestinians left voluntarily fearing harm from invading Arab armies. It was a lie covering up Israeli crimes Palestinians call the Nakba - the catastrophe or disaster that's still a cold, harsh festering unresolved injustice. Even with British armed presence still in charge of law and order before its Mandate ended, Jewish forces completed the expulsion of about 250,000 Palestinians the Brits did nothing to stop. It continued unabated because when neighboring Arab states finally intervened, they did so without conviction. They came belatedly and with only small, ill-equipped forces, no match for a superior, well-armed Israeli military easily able to prevail as discussed below.

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe

[Diogenes]

Sao Paulo was settled by Germans. Their bias lives in the University.

hum??? try Portuguese.

Yes...primarily Portuguese, but a large contingent of Italians... I just didn't think the statement was worthy of a response as it was blatantly ignorant and prejudicial..

the University is in the top 120 Universities in the World...and admissions requires a certain knowledge of Portuguese, as it is part of the multiple-choice questionaire.

The 350 leading higher education institutions in 2008

USP ranks 35th...

MINES ParisTech - PROFESSIONAL RANKING OF WORLD UNIVERSITIES

[Rog]

Quote by: Diogenes the University is in the top 120 Universities in the World...and admissions requires a certain knowledge of Portuguese, as it is part of the multiple-choice questionaire.

Yes I know, I went there for 2 semesters.

[Killroy]

With the Mandate coming to an end, fierce Zionist operations against the British in Palestine forced the British to submit the Palestine problem to the United Nation, which in February 1947, was only 2 years old with little experience in solving regional conflicts. With 5 permanent members and 6 non-permanent members, The Security Council began its crucial deliberations which, as we shall see, sealed Palestine’s fate and squashed its hopes of becoming an independent nation. UNSCOP: The United Nations Special Committee On Palestine Following the British example, but not learning from it, the Security Council decided to establish the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) to be made up of 11 members, none of them permanent members of the Council, and many of them having very little knowledge of the Middle East, let alone of Palestine. The Committee members represented the following nations: Australia, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, India, Iran, The Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay, Yugoslavia. Before UNSCOP reached the shores of Palestine, the British, in a desperate attempt to ease Jewish immigration into Palestine, asked the US government to take up an initiative by Congressman William Stratton in April 1947 to allow a one-off immigration, from Europe to USA, of some 400,000 Jews. This was categorically rejected by the US Administration. UNSCOP’s arrival in Palestine coincided with the arrival of the Jewish refugee ship The Exodus. The British decision to capture and return it to Germany reinforced the link in the minds of UNSCOP Committee members of the survival of European Jews with their eventual settlement in the land of Palestine. It is in this emotional atmosphere that UNSCOP was conducting its enquiries and discussing the fate of the Palestinians. The Arab Higher Committee was becoming convinced that the independence of Palestine was not UNSCOP’s main priority. Interestingly, we now know that the Jewish Agency provided UNSCOP in May 1947 with a map of Palestine which showed a future Jewish state in over 80% of Palestine. This is equivalent to the land Israel has so far claimed today. It took UNSCOP exactly two and a half months to complete its task. It met in Geneva in the conference room on the first floor of the Palais des Nations where they signed the official Report on the last hour of the last day of August 1947, just minutes before its term of office expired. Its Report was presented to the UN General Assembly on 1 September 1947. The fate of Palestine was formally sealed.

1948 - UNSCOP

[dixon]

Quote by: Plus Ultra No, most national boundaries are not disputed and were secured over time between neighboring countries with institutionalized processes and authorities to maintain and protect border markers and graphic representations of the boundaries on maps. The annexation of about 2/3 of Mexico through the Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty was a particularly eggregious act. .

Revolutionary war, The Jay treaty in 1794 to avert war, established much of our Northern border. So most of our borders were established through the coercion of warfare or threatened warfare. Europe? the history of european borders is the history of warfare in Europe. Much of the worlds borders were as the result of the coercion of colonial conquest.

[Plus Ultra]

European borders mostly resulted from the gradual consolidation of feudal lords under regional monarchs and the intermarriage of royal households. In Britain the United Kingdom emerged from joining England, Scotland and Wales, in Spain the Catholic Kings united Leon (with Navarre, Asturias and Galicia) and Castille (with Catalonia, Valencia, Andalusia and Aragon). In Switzerland they formed the Helvetian Confederation which grouped Cantons together. Germany and Italy also were formed by amalgamating principalities, duchys, counties and baronetcies. It wasn't always peaceful. In most cases the end result was a boundary along natural geographic divisions like a river or mountain crest, dividing different nationalities (in the broader sense) with people speaking different languages, dressing and eating differently on either side.

The US emerged late in the boundary game and acquired most of its territory through treaties which often featured the outright purchase of lands. Manhattan Island, Louisiana, chunks of Texas, Alaska and allegedly 2/3 of Mexico -were supposedly purchased by the US government. This is a very unusual way for a sovereign to expand, it didn't happen at all in Europe or Asia.

[Derach]

Quote by: Plus Ultra Although the US does excessively support Israel, I have no doubt Israel would be wiped off the map and all Jews removed from there if it wasn't clear the US stood 100% behind Israel.

So what?

Governments and countries propped up by third parties don't tend to work out well.

I have the same argument for the Palestinians ... you want independance, want your own nation, want soverign and internationally recognized borders? You have to figure out how to get along with your neighbors. You won't have soverignty (or security) if your neighbors want you eraticated.

Just because the jews got the playground bully to cover their backs (for now) doesn't give them security. If a bigger dog backs Palestinians (arabs), Israel might get wiped off the planet anyhow.

I don't see the huge benefit to the US in propping the Israeli government so much.