Venezuela: America hones her talons, Its the OIL !

[bishop]

interesting how when it comes to talking about bush's position on "democracy" in the middle east versus his failed coup in venezuela, all the bushies have nothing to say.

when the only type of democracy that you support is one where its leaders do what you want, that is not true support for democracy - it's support for puppet democracies. if i was, say, an iraqi, looking at our government imposing a "democracy" in my country - and if i knew about our failed coup in venezuela - i'd be mightily skeptical.

you either support democracy or you don't. maybe someone like mr. vic will talk about his links to terrorism or something as being the basis of why we'd go after him. despite the fact that there are dozens of other countries with well-known and active links. it isn't all about the oil? really?

[Mr.Vicchio]

WE are trying to not see another tyrrany set up. Cuba, the man repsects CUBA.

Do YOU want another Cuba in SA?

I rest my case there.

Its all about the oil, only in this case, the oil issue is on the left/bush hater side of the fence. Entirely.

[Gorgo]

Good analogy, actually. The U.S. has terrorized Cuba since it wouldn't obey the U.S. and allow U.S. another U.S. puppet regime to exist. You need to study your history 'V.' The U.S. has a history of hating anything resembling democracy. Yes, including Japan and Italy.

[bishop]

the man was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED! what part of that do you not understand?

thanks for the laugh. big deal if he respects cuba. that piss poor island doesn't bother me at all. sorry, but i don't buy into the rambling hype.

i hear that russia's helping the iranians with their nuke program.. china's been selling military to our enemies.. hell, pakistan is one of the main reasons why n. korea is developing nukes.. that's a little worse than respecting cuba.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Lets dont forget Bush family respects Hitler

[Mr.Vicchio]

President Hugo Chavez ties to terrorism by Antonio Guzman-Blanco Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his government are actively involved in promoting state-sponsored terrorism. To this end, the Chavez regime has orchestrated the creation of civilian "Bolivarian Circles". Organized and led by Minister of the Interior and Justice, Diosdado Cabello and by Mayor Freddy Bernal, it is widely believed that many of these "Circles of Terror" are heavily armed and that their members are being trained in paramilitary and terrorist activities, by military personnel and Cuban advisors. President Chavez has often publicly incited them to commit crimes when he has ordered them to defend his revolution with weapons or whatever means are available to them and to carry out acts of intimidation and violence against the opposition and the media. In a recent escalation of violence, last Friday, December 6, a gunman who is reasonably presumed to be closely tied to these terrorist circles, opened fire on a group of men, women and children who were peacefully attending a gathering of the opposition at Plaza Francia in Caracas' mostly middle-class sector called Altamira. Three people were killed, including a 17 year old girl, a middle aged university professor and an elderly lady, and 28 people were wounded, including a 7 year old girl, who is still in intensive care. One lone shooter was overpowered by those present and handed over to the Municipal authorities. Given the high number of casualties, it is almost certain (although yet unproven) that more than one shooter was involved. Strong evidence suggests the involvement of snipers. Meanwhile, the investigative police who is charged with getting to the bottom of this crime, is dragging its feet and essentially obstructing the investigation. http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?con...lysis/tony1001

WHAT’S GOING ON? Telling anyone who wants to listen that he’s the victim of a heavily-backed national and international conspiracy implemented by local racist “oligarchs” determined to recover power in what was once Latin America’s most stable yet corrupt democracy, the outspoken Chavez has fallen dramatically from public grace, a dangerous predicament for someone who already had a narrow escape from disaster in April of 2002. At that time, the President somehow managed to come back from exile only 48 hours after having resigned, following a confusing series of incidents which started with seventeen people killed and three hundred wounded near Caracas’ Miraflores Palace, seat of the Venezuelan government. The opposition accuses Chavez of plotting and executing the massacre of a peaceful protest march of close to a million Venezuelans by his armed followers, which led to the military hierarchy disobeying his orders to further deploy Army troops against the civilian opponents –thus saving countless lives– and demanding and obtaining his immediate resignation, as announced to the nation by the country’s highest-ranking officer and Chavez confidant, General Lucas Rincon, who also informed that the entire body of the Chiefs of Staff also were putting their charges at the disposal “of the new authorities”, after which announcement Rincon simply went to bed. As conditions to resign, Chavez demanded safe passage to Cuba for himself and members of his family and Cabinet, plus seven million dollars in cash. After the agreement was brokered between the President and top Generals, however, other high-ranking officials balked at allowing him to flee, insisting that he should be put to justice for the massacre. The President, facing certain conviction and notoriety, went back on his verbal resignation and got word to his followers to fight to bring him back. As these talks were under way, with Chavez in custody, the subsequent void of power caused by the flight of the whole of the President’s Cabinet, including his hand-picked Vice President, and many of his well-placed allies, was then used by a small group of officers and civilians to take control and decree the abolition of democratic institutions. This was the coup, but perpetrated not against the President, who had already resigned, nor his government, whose members had mostly fled, but aginst the opposition. The actions of this group were met with immediate rejection by most opposition leaders, causing a new void which was just what key Chavez players in the military needed, using it to effectively maneuver him back into power, after promising in his name an apology to the country, toned-down rhetoric and an immediate referendum on his Administration. The President has his own version of what happened in April, romantically portraying those days as the fruit of a cold-blooded conspiracy contrived by rich, white plotsters to topple him, foiled thanks to his steadfast refusal to resign and to the outraged reaction of “millions” of loving, poor (and non-White) Chavistas in the streets demanding his return to power. http://www.analitica.com/va/ttim/int...al/8663755.asp

[giuliano]

Mr V,

chavez was democratically elected. how can you advocate subverting the democratic mandate and then talk about "handing over the said coutnries to the people that live there".

that's ridiculous.

[Gorgo]

Do you know who these people are that are writing these articles, 'V?'

[bishop]

he can't answer the question, so he looks to prop up the red herrings.

wanna talk about ties to terrorism.. one need not look further than two of our allies - saudi arabia and pakistan.

using cuba as an example of why we were supposedly right in staging a failed coup. what a pitiful ploy mr. v.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I find it funny to read your attempts at "gotcha" and avoid the pont at hand.


No whats pitiful is your sudden championing of democracy, Hugo Chavez may have been democratically elected but his actions afterwrs of sending death squads against his own people, and other actions show that you believe TWO things:

1. That if your are "democratically elected" its okay to kill your own people, amazingly I now see its no wonder you objected to the Iraq war.... Saddam was repeatedly "elected" president...

2. No evil is greater then George Bush.



Bishop, you are defending a man whose actions post election are nothing less then horrific, yet you harp about "democracy". Democracy isn't a free pass for murder.

[giuliano]

the evidence of chavez employing death squads is unproven and politically motivated, as far as i can tell. i am unsure if there is substance behind those claims or not.

would it be more acceptable if his death squads were trained by the School of the Americas?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Try clicking the links I provided. seemed like decent info.

Death Squads are unsat, period.

[bishop]

funny that nobody attempted a coup when corrupt tyrants ruled that country. i never heard any neocon think tank talking about going after them.. all of a sudden, with this rebel in charge, how the tune has changed. if our dictators do what we like, we keep them in place, no matter how they treat their people.

but, of course, chavez is no dictator, he's the democratically elected president of venezuela.

i'm impressed that you're such a concerned citizen.. always fighting for the little guy. how about some regime change in saudi arabia? egypt? pakistan? etc.. etc... it's okay if we support a man in central asia who's reputed to boil people alive. he's our buddy, rummy recently paid a visit full of praise. ah, i forgot, those friends aren't democracies.. silly me.

what, oh what, could make venezuela so unique? i know, it can't be the oil.

so what you're saying is that when we don't like the democracy, we can attempt a coup to overthrow it?

nice.. it's a good perspective to remember when looking at iraq and bush's real views of democracy.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Basically its all about the oil right Bishop? If the country has oil, and Bush is involved, then its evil, and nothing will turn your hate off. Gotcha.

[Mr.Vicchio]

kk

[Gorgo]

'V', you don't think it's interesting that one of the authors of your last-posted articles, Antonio Guzman-Blanco, has the same name as a former dictator of Venezuela, and is a banker? A banker who is telling people that the opposition to Venezuela are not "oligarchs?"

[Compugasm]

I wonder if he's a disenfranchised voter?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Reuters Oil Holds Above $45 on Iraq, Venezuela Fri Aug 13, 2004 08:12 AM ET Traders worry that Iraqi rebels loyal to Shi'ite Muslim cleric Moqtada al-Sadr will carry through a threat to attack oil infrastructure after U.S. forces stormed the holy city Najaf to quell a week-long uprising by Sadr supporters. There were also concerns that Sunday's referendum in Venezuela may lead to violence if Chavez is defeated, and put the country's oil shipments at risk.

Interesting Iraq and Venezuela are mentioned in the same breath when talking about record highs in oil prices: $45.42 barrel
Also;
Shouldnt "Death Squads" be color coded for easy identification. I know that takes away some of the drama and mystique, but shouldnt folks know who is murdering them? I know thats naieve, but it seems they could at least have a little "SOA seal of approval" badge or arm band

[gr8fuldaniel]

I hadnt seen anything about who is actually running against Chavez, so I did a search. Maybe Dudya is looking for a new job in a tropical climate. God knows he is qualified for dictatorship in a Banana Republic

Pravda.ru Chavez: "My opponent in the recall vote is George W. Bush" 06/14/2004 19:40 The Venezuelan leader reveals his strategy for defeating the opposition on the August, 15 referendum over his rule. Mr. Chavez has also accused the US of funding his political foes. Venezuela"s President Hugo Chavez decided to stay in power despite opposition"s attempts to oust him in recall vote scheduled for August 15. On June, 12 Chavez doubled the bet by accusing opposition of receiving US funding and addressed his statement to the White House, "My opponent in the recall vote is George W. Bush".

[Samildanach]

Its ALWAYS about the oil. Don't you just happen to find it even a little bit of a 'coincidence' that every country that the US takes an interest in just happens to be an oil supplier in some capacity?