cause of a fractured society...

[bishop]

based off of m5lange1's comment speaking of all the non-issues and mudslinging that makes its way into campaigns:

How does this kind of crap ever even makes the news, let alone become part of the political battle? Are both the left and right so bankrupt in the ability to solve the real issues that this has become the battleground? Sad, man. Real sad.

it sure is sad when the two leading parties spend MUCH more energy bad mouthing their opponents than discussing real solutions to real problems. this mudslinging extends far beyond the bush/kerry campaign machines. i'm simply astonished at all the partisanship that has grown after 9/11.. in my eyes, this is the partisanship is tantamount to hate. both sides claim that their opponents hate them, and to an extent they're correct. too bad both sides don't admit that they hate their opponents.

it's amazing when you look back and see how united we were after 9/11 and how severely divided we have become. this division can be blamed on one single issue: iraq.

agree or disagree?

[LiveAndLetLive]

Originally posted by bishop, it's amazing when you look back and see how united we were after 9/11 and how severely divided we have become. this division can be blamed on one single issue: iraq. agree or disagree?

Agree. Iraq amounts to the US "casting the first stone." There was simply not enough evidence that they represented an actual threat to the US. Influence on al Qaeda, perhaps. But, then, so does Saudi Arabia.

The Iraq War is like Vietnam, Korea, and WWI. The unintended consequences of this "projection" of power will reverberate for years, and NOT in a good way.

[Gorgo]

Who was united on what issue?

When the planes hit, I had hoped that the U.S. administration would learn that terrorism is not a good idea, and they'd learn what this kind of violence does to people.

They decided that the kind of thing that happened on 9/11 was a good idea, and they decided to export it to thousands of others, increasing the chance that it would happen here.

The only thing that changed is that more people are going to be hurt and die.

While some were united in that idea, not all of us were.

[bishop]

i think it's safe to say that bush caused the rupture in our society by choosing to go into iraq. right before the invasion, the country was split about 50/50 on going in pre-emptively. now a majority say that the war was the wrong thing to do.

i would be interested to see the bush supporters claim that either the country isn't divided, or that the division is the democrats' fault.

[bishop]

with all due respect gorgo, the overwhelming majority of this country supported our invasion of afghanistan. only a small fringe opposed it, yourself included.

i'm just saying, in general, the country was united after 9/11. there are always those who will say that we had it coming, etc..

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by bishop, it's amazing when you look back and see how united we were after 9/11 and how severely divided we have become. this division can be blamed on one single issue: iraq. agree or disagree?

I disagree. The media sold us out when they became embedded with a corrupt leadership, rather than reporting what we needed to hear, they are reporting what they want us to think. Media is now propaganda and if they reported the truth Bush would be impeached, no, he never would have given an innaugural address after getaway from raging citizens in an egg splattered limo. This idiot is a farce the media is playing off with smoke and mirrors. So, now the division amongst us is between those who see past all the stage tricks to what is really going on; and the terrorized docile sheep who believe what they are told without challenging it.
The unity we felt after 911? I wanted a legit investigation and never got one, do you feel like you are being conned by a partisan commission that should not have bargained with our criminal leaders? I sure do. So it was before Iraq.

[Gorgo]

Any dissent means that we were not united, and even if we were united in that, what else were we united about?

[bishop]

I disagree. The media sold us out when they became embedded with a corrupt leadership, rather than reporting what we needed to hear, they are reporting what they want us to think.

i agree that the media was largely following the leader. but i also remember that following 9/11, there was an atmosphere that any sort of dissent was unpatriotic. democrats in particular who dissented were blacklisted. the net result of this was much bigger than the media following bush around. we've had a void of credible alternative ideas - the liberal side of this country was more or less afraid to speak its mind, and mainstream society was not interested in listening to those who did. using this clout, bush began the march to iraq knowing that he could push people aside if need be.

The unity we felt after 911? I wanted a legit investigation and never got one, do you feel like you are being conned by a partisan commission that should not have bargained with our criminal leaders? I sure do. So it was before Iraq.

i knew what happened with 9/11.. our inefficient bureaucracies fucked up because of a lack of communication. i didn't need investigation after investigation to tell me that. and, i think the country as a whole believed that to have been the case immediately after 9/11.


if these painfully visible divisions didn't start with bush's march to iraq, then what caused the divisions?

[bishop]

Originally posted by Gorgo, Any dissent means that we were not united, and even if we were united in that, what else were we united about?

united not in the absolute sense of the word.. but united in general.

shit.. people in new york were actually looking each other in the eyes and being kind to each other for a good while.

[m5lange1]

I have to say I think the big split started when the GOP (Of which I was a member at the time) and the media spent so time money and resources going after Clinton.

DISCLAIMER....
I was not a supporter of Clinton's actions in any way.

Still you cannot go after a president like that (at least unless he has caused major harm to the country) and not expect it to start driving a big wedge.
It got his opponents, and supporters all worked up. I do not believe it has ever really stopped.

I also believe right wing talk radio coming on day after day raging on about "culture war" amd calling the left the "enemy" went further toward widening the gap.

Right or wrong, if you hear yourself referred to daily as the enemy it will not take long to agree.

So yea... I confess I think the Right started the big schism BUT I do not believe that excuses the Left, who responded in kind (or unkind).

Even worse these idealogues were making big piles of money.

Next step? The left fights back with movies and books that are every bit as inflamitory (AND PROFITABLE) to make the gap even wider.

So the right starts the book procession too

and on and on.....

And you can really tell it has taken the thought process out of political followers when they cannot see their own idealogues but scream condemnation at the opposing idealogues.

It has gone well beyond reason. And... as I have said before....
untill people start paying attention to "what" is said instead of "who" said it the gap will just continue to widen to the cost of our national well being.

"Divide and conquer."
Think about it.

[m5lange1]

By the way,

I have been seeing more and more "Oh yea? well what about when your side....?"
arguments lately on both sides.

Almost always this is to justify that side A did something wrong or unethical because side B did something wrong or unethical.

Once we start saying if you do it it JUSTIFIES our doing it, we are definately going down the road of escaltation.



M5

[bishop]

you could go all the way back to the civil rights movement if you really wanted to. imo, the south is still bitter that it lost the segregation fight. just like they lost the civil war. lots of pent up resentment against us "northern elitists".

i agree with everything you said.. i wish i could figure out what the solution is. seems that neither side is interested in compromise. my only hope is that things could possibly improve once bush leaves office and the nation's frustrations turns towards the gridlock between a democratic president and republican congress.

[Samildanach]

Just have a civil war that will sort things out.