Why mixing religion and politics is bad

[Tycoon]

Of course, the other option that seems to be gaining ground is optional Bible Study classes in high school.

Granting optional bible study classes as an elective gives Christianity priority over other religions. It should be a religious studies class, and should adress all perspectives, including that of atheism, with a completely unbiased attitude.

[Shade]

Religion and politics are the two curses of humanity, mixed or not.

Nothing in world history has caused more suffering and murder.

They are both evil fantasies.

[Tycoon]

Religion and politics are the two curses of humanity, mixed or not. Nothing in world history has caused more suffering and murder. They are both evil fantasies.

Government is necessary to run a civilization. It may cause large conflicts but that's still better than anarchy.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Tycoon Granting optional bible study classes as an elective gives Christianity priority over other religions. It should be a religious studies class, and should adress all perspectives, including that of atheism, with a completely unbiased attitude.

I don't disagree, but -- {{SIGH}} -- nobody asked me.

Quote by: Shade Religion and politics are the two curses of humanity, mixed or not.

LOLOL!!! Then I gotta say, Shade... you picked an interesting place to hang out online.

Quote by: Tycoon Government is necessary to run a civilization. It may cause large conflicts but that's still better than anarchy.

And oddly enough, I believe that religion - taken as a whole - has been mostly a benefit to mankind, at least over the majority of history and on the inividual level. (Yeah, yeah, wars, intolerance, so on and so on)

Given that I believe human beings are hardwired by evolution for religious belief (meaning some form of spirituality), I have to believe it was for a beneficial reason - an evolutionary survival mechanism - and that reason is that people find comfort, courage, resilience, solace, strength of character, and social bonding through religion.

I see nothing wrong with that.

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[Shade]

Quote by: Tycoon Government is necessary to run a civilization. It may cause large conflicts but that's still better than anarchy.

Really?

Anarchy already exists.

Question: Who governs the governments that exist today?

Answer: Nobody.

The governments that exist today have to figure out how to cooperate with each other. There is nobody to tell them to do it. They just do it.

That's anarchy.

[Shade]

Quote by: Sonart ...I believe that religion - taken as a whole - has been mostly a benefit to mankind, at least over the majority of history and on the inividual level. (Yeah, yeah, wars, intolerance, so on and so on)

Maybe you find it easy to dismiss mass murder, child abuse, and destruction of the mind. I don't.

By the way, Sonart, do you or have you ever worked for government?

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Shade Maybe you find it easy to dismiss mass murder, child abuse, and destruction of the mind. I don't.

The greatest mass murders in human history were committed under atheist regimes... Stalin and Mao. Shall I therefore condemn atheism?

Religion has been a part of the human condition since the Paleolithic era, and therefore part of every aspect of human activity, from the most sublime to the most brutal. We commit atrocities because we're human, not because we're religious, just like we're religious because we're human...not because of God. So it's my guess that mass murder, child abuse, etc. would have occurred with or without religion, just as compassion, charity and benevolence would have occurred, with or without religion. It occurred because we're human. We just BELIEVE that God(s) have something to do with everything.

I used to be your typical angry atheist, so of course religion had to be the cause of all evil throughout history. I've come to understand that such anger is based in the bitterness I've experienced from the lifelong knowledge that, as an atheist, I've been despised and condemned by my own society. Some of that bitterness still exists, but for the most part I'm over it. My old wet dream of inviting some sweet little Jehovah's Witnesses into my den, with a smile and a cup of tea, then ... Buwaahahahahaha ... turning on them and viciously slashing their core beliefs to shreds has come and gone. If people find comfort, strength and peace through their faith, then good for them.

All I know is that I don't and can't believe in God, so I've turned my energies to finding out what positive things I do believe. Whatever cosmic irony made me able to see that the King has no clothes, it's no longer my self-appointed job to inform everyone else, especially since they won't believe me - after all, they're humans and evolution designed them to believe in God, so they can't help it.

Thankfully, forums like this exist where I'm actually invited to spout off.

Quote by: Shade By the way, Sonart, do you or have you ever worked for government?

Never. I'm an artist, surfer, philosopher.

Quote by: Shade Question: Who governs the governments that exist today? Answer: Nobody. The governments that exist today have to figure out how to cooperate with each other. There is nobody to tell them to do it. They just do it. That's anarchy.

Weeeeee.... nuthin up my sleeve... nuthin in the hat.... presto!!

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[Tycoon]

Question: Who governs the governments that exist today? Answer: Nobody. The governments that exist today have to figure out how to cooperate with each other. There is nobody to tell them to do it. They just do it. That's anarchy.

It's less anarchy than having no government.

[Shade]

Quote by: Sonart The greatest mass murders in human history were committed under atheist regimes... Stalin and Mao. Shall I therefore condemn atheism?

Both are examples of the state committing mass murder and other atrocities.

I said religion and politics are the two curses of humanity. Thank you for making my case.

We commit atrocities because we're human, not because we're religious, just like we're religious because we're human...not because of God.

Murder is not an every day activity for most people. While we have the capacity to murder, we also have the capacity to refrain from hurting others, even to refrain from stepping on a bug. To commit murder, humans usually need a reason.

The top two reasons throughout history have been religion and the state.

Never. I'm an artist, surfer, philosopher. .

The reason I asked is because I'm curious: How did you become so enamored with the state?

Parents? Spouse?

[Shade]

Quote by: Tycoon It's less anarchy than having no government.

So?

[Tycoon]

So?

Are you saying that we shouldn't strive to do and be better simply because we cannot be perfect?

[Night]

Quote by: Spartan 117 What would be dangerous about having Christianity a part of school or government. Lets see what Christianity teaches first it says that murder, adultery, stealing, is wrong and that you should honor your parents and love your neighbor's yeah thats sounds really dangerous to me. The fact that you compare Islam to Christianity just shows your lack of knowledge about either.

Oh I don't know...maybe about the whole "our zombie savior, who is also somehow a god but isn't a god because he's his own father but is actually the same thing" figure will make people like me a bit...unnerved?

[loser]

Judging ALL religions (Christianity) by the actions of ONE religion (Islam) is like judging ALL human beings (you) by ONE human being (Adolph Hitler).

If you recall the story of Jesus and the adulteress, Jews and Muslims call for the stoning death of the woman (Intolerance) while Christians (Jesus) call for mercy and forgiveness (Tolerance). I don't think that the Christian teaching of tolerance would be that out of place in American society.

Can you name ONE Christian teaching that would be harmful (if practiced) in American society?

Of course, National Defense would not be very effective if they 'turned the other cheek' or 'repaid evil with good' but on a personal level, how would that work?

Keep in mind, however, that I am talking about what the Bible teaches and NOT what so-called Christians teach. For example, the Bible does NOT teach eternal punishment (torture, torment) for sinners. That would NOT be forgiveness, mercy, or tolerance. THAT teaching comes from unforgiving humans who THINK that they represent Jesus (which they don't).

As far as freedom is concerned, that concept is often misconstrued and abused. Total freedom is NOT acceptable. Society DEMANDS a certain amount of control...and you wouldn't have it (want it) any other way.

If they want to push there silly beliefs into law then that's a problem.

Ah, yes, like gun control or abortion rights or same-sex marriages. Why are these "silly beliefs" any different than the ones that you don't like?

Personally, I don't want the government to pass laws allowing mothers the right to kill their unborn children but I welcome laws that forbid murder. I don't want laws telling me that I can't own a gun but I want laws that condemn armed robbery and assault.

Yes, there are a LOT of silly beliefs that people want to push into law but most of them, however, have NOTHING to do with religion.

Why Christianity and not another religion?

Why allow the indiscriminate killing or torture of mice but not allow you to kill or torture your pet dog or cat? Is killing your pet different than killing a roach? If you can see the difference between these two different species of animals, how is it that you can't see the difference between Christianity and Islam?

One example from the bible is that women should not speak in church - that could easily be an argument for silencing women in the senate or house

No, because women weren't forbidden to speak anywhere but church. They spoke loudly EVERYWHERE ELSE, including at home, in the marketplace, in the streets and in the courts. Women's rights were virtually unknown in Judaism (and still so in Islam) but it was very different under Jesus' teaching. Some of His best disciples were women and Christianity (as taught in scripture) was the first proponent of sexual and racial equality.

On the other hand, the Bible also teaches that making graven images is a sin (oh wait, no!!! I make graven images for a living), that I can't say, "Holy cow!", that being born a homosexual is evil, that we shouldn't charge interest on loans, that slavery is a perfectly acceptable institution, that women are inferior and should be subject to men, etc. etc. as well as that apparently we are to ignore the lessons of modern science if and when it conflicts with bronze-age ignorance.

Speaking of ignorance, your knowledge of what the Bible teaches leaves a lot to be desired. Still, Spartan said "Christianity".

1) This commandment was given to the Hebrews some 3,400 years ago. It was at a time when idol worship (graven images) was prevalent all around them. It wasn't the carving of these images that God was concerned with, it was their WORSHIP. At that time, these images were carved as idols of worship. Christianity teaches forgiveness and tolerance.

2) "Holy Cow"? Cite your reference, please.

3) No one is born a homosexual. When you are born you have absolutely NO sexual proclivity (for the most part, although experiences in the womb CAN create such inclinations). If a father molests his son, indoctrinating him into a homosexual lifestyle, who do you think is guilty of homosexuality? However, once that child grows up and develops a conscience he has the ability (and obligation) to (attempt to) overcome his "evil" desires. Christianity teaches forgiveness and tolerance.

4) "Shouldn't charge interest"? And your beef is? Your greed is not sanctioned by Christianity but it does teach forgiveness and tolerance.

5) Show where slavery is deemed a "perfectly acceptable institution". However, it was tolerated. Also, servitude is often mistaken for slavery. Many people DESIRE to become 'slaves' (for economic reasons). There is nothing shameful or disgraceful in being a slave...or a master. The shame or disgrace comes from being an unfaithful servant or a cruel, unrighteous master. Any good slave can tell you the worth of a good master...and vice-versa.

6) Christianity actually teaches that women are equal with men and are in no way inferior. You're confusing your belief with that of the Bible.

7) We would do well to ignore the spaced-age ignorance of modern times and listen to the Bronze Age intelligence of yesteryear. Mankind's intelligence has entropied dramatically but this does not excuse his refusal to learn from the past. Scientific reasoning has degenerated from rational, intelligent thinking to superstitious, mindless conjecture. The Bible is a repository of scientific wisdom and knowledge which has, for the most part, been rejected for more popular (but ignorant) superstition.

[loser]

I was more speaking about schools and if evolution and the big bang theory can be taught in school then why shouldn't they also talk about creationism.

Actually. we need to quit teaching lies (like evolution) to our children just because we are uncomfortable with the truth (of creation). Everyone knows that the ToE is fallacy but they can't let go of it because they reject ACCOUNTABILITY. It's time mankind gets his head out of the sand and faces reality.

That's you're version of christianity. Why teach just that section in school? Why stop there? Why not speak of the tortures of hell.. and then compare and contrast it to American's aversion to torture?

That's your version of Christianity and it's wrong. The Bible does NOT teach the tortures of hell (See post before)!

It's ok for God to damn somebody to torture, but we can't use it to isntil fear or coherse information?

God doesn't do that. Once again, you're mistaken (See above).

Why not speak of killing babies to make a point? Why not speak of raping women and keeping slaves to make a point? Why not speak of raining fire down on non-believers? Where is the line? .. and if you really believe in God, should there even be a line? His rule over-rules..right?

Your understanding of God and His rule (s) is seriously distorted.

Creationism isn’t taught in schools because it’s not scientific - it doesn’t follow the scientific method of investigation.

Absolutely untrue. Since creation is a REALITY, it can't be nothing but scientific! The scientific method is only as dependable as the men applying it. Creationism can be verified by the scientific method but evolution can't. Still, that doesn't stop ignorant men from attempting to fabricate false 'evidence' from faulty conclusions.

It’s part of a belief system. Belief systems should be taught at home.

I agree. Keep evolution at home where it belongs.

Evolution and the big bang theory differ because they follow the scientific method and have extensive scientific evidence that hasn’t been disproven. And they aren’t part of a belief system – they are acknowledged by many atheists and theists alike. These theories include no claims about the existence or lack of existence of God.

They are exactly the same. God (or creationism) hasn't been disproved either! They are nothing but beliefs...no proof exists for either of those theories. Acknowledgment only proves ignorance.

Why? Very simple, it's based in belief and faith and not science. It is part of a religion, and therefore should be separate. If not, why only the christian version? Why not other versions? We need to have science classrooms be a place where one can learn what their supposed to in those classes: Science, not religion.

You think it's so because you say it is. That's not critical thinking at all. Religion and science are arbitrary words that are misused. What you call science is really religion and vice-versa. Science (like evolution) taught in schools is only belief; it doesn't belong in the classroom. Truth, not lies.

Here's an idea... we teach science as science, and religion as religion.

First, you have to understand what those words mean. Then, you can quit misapplying them.

Or the right to impose your beliefs on others?

How does that work?

Public schools are an instrument of local government, therefore teaching creationism in public schools is very clearly about religion in government.

Creationism has nothing to do with religion, it's about good science.

Nothing in world history has caused more suffering and murder.

No, I would say that, for the most part, it has been HUMANITY that has caused most all of the suffering and murder. The fantasy is blaming something else for what YOU do. Religion, science or politics can't make you pick up a gun and kill...it's YOUR choice.

Maybe you find it easy to dismiss mass murder, child abuse, and destruction of the mind. I don't.

So, how does that make you feel about HUMANITY? It's humans that do that, you know.

I said religion and politics are the two curses of humanity. Thank you for making my case

There's only ONE curse: not accepting responsibility for one's OWN actions,

The top two reasons throughout history have been religion and the state

You're wrong. There's only been ONE reason: LUST!

Lust for money (greed), lust for power, lust for sex...SELFISHNESS!

There's your only reason for ALL the atrocities of mankind.

Oh I don't know...maybe about the whole "our zombie savior, who is also somehow a god but isn't a god because he's his own father but is actually the same thing" figure will make people like me a bit...unnerved?

He didn't say 'ignorance' should be taught, only truth. It would help a lot of confused people (such as yourself).

[Night]

Quote by: loser Actually. we need to quit teaching lies (like evolution) to our children just because we are uncomfortable with the truth (of creation). Everyone knows that the ToE is fallacy but they can't let go of it because they reject ACCOUNTABILITY. It's time mankind gets his head out of the sand and faces reality. That's your version of Christianity and it's wrong. The Bible does NOT teach the tortures of hell (See post before)! God doesn't do that. Once again, you're mistaken (See above). Your understanding of God and His rule (s) is seriously distorted. Absolutely untrue. Since creation is a REALITY, it can't be nothing but scientific! The scientific method is only as dependable as the men applying it. Creationism can be verified by the scientific method but evolution can't. Still, that doesn't stop ignorant men from attempting to fabricate false 'evidence' from faulty conclusions. I agree. Keep evolution at home where it belongs. They are exactly the same. God (or creationism) hasn't been disproved either! They are nothing but beliefs...no proof exists for either of those theories. Acknowledgment only proves ignorance. You think it's so because you say it is. That's not critical thinking at all. Religion and science are arbitrary words that are misused. What you call science is really religion and vice-versa. Science (like evolution) taught in schools is only belief; it doesn't belong in the classroom. Truth, not lies. First, you have to understand what those words mean. Then, you can quit misapplying them. How does that work? Creationism has nothing to do with religion, it's about good science. No, I would say that, for the most part, it has been HUMANITY that has caused most all of the suffering and murder. The fantasy is blaming something else for what YOU do. Religion, science or politics can't make you pick up a gun and kill...it's YOUR choice. So, how does that make you feel about HUMANITY? It's humans that do that, you know. There's only ONE curse: not accepting responsibility for one's OWN actions, You're wrong. There's only been ONE reason: LUST! Lust for money (greed), lust for power, lust for sex...SELFISHNESS! There's your only reason for ALL the atrocities of mankind. He didn't say 'ignorance' should be taught, only truth. It would help a lot of confused people (such as yourself).

Oh, I'm not confused in the least bit, in fact I perfectly understand Christianity.

You think Christianity is a true testament.

But you know what?

More than 2 billion other people think that their religions are correct and your religion is wrong. The Muslims think that they're right. The hindus, the buddhists...they all think that they're right and you're wrong. What makes them wrong? Is it just because your zombie-god-father-son-is-the-same-person said so? You're gullible enough to believe in a book because the book says it is true?

The United States is not a Christian nation, never has been a Christian nation, and never will be a Christian nation.

Amen.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Spartan 117 I am not saying that Christianity should be a part of the government, I was more speaking about schools and if evolution and the big bang theory can be taught in school then why shouldn't they also talk about creationism.

Because evolution is science and creationism is not, perhaps?

Either take both evolution or also include creationism with it.

So are you suggesting that we also teach the "demon theory of disease" alongside germ theory, flat-earthism and geocentrism alongside a spherical earth and astrology along with astronomy? You might as well be, all of those things have as much credibility as creationism.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Tycoon It's less anarchy than having no government.

Government is something that naturally forms from anarchy. If you abolished all forms of government, people with the same views would naturally gravitate together and form governments again. Anarchy simply cannot continue to exist for long.

[Zakari]

So the world's best selling fairytale anthology should be taught in school...

If only Tolkien or Pratchett had better marketing campaigns - we'd have millions of kids doing homework on their stories instead...

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Shade Both are examples of the state committing mass murder and other atrocities. I said religion and politics are the two curses of humanity. Thank you for making my case.

LOLOLOL!!! Making your case? You've just named the two most universal institutions of civilized man... government and religion. But by all means... you go live your life without government. If you want to call 'Nasty, brutish and short' living.

Quote by: Shade Murder is not an every day activity for most people.

And most people are religious.. remember?

But as a matter of fact it is. By that I mean that within any given population, murders are going to occur. In my city, San Diego, yeah, I suspect at least one murder occurs every day, if not more. We've managed to reduce murder rates on occassion... but eliminate it. Nope.

Quote by: Shade While we have the capacity to murder, we also have the capacity to refrain from hurting others, even to refrain from stepping on a bug.

As I said.

Quote by: Shade To commit murder, humans usually need a reason.

Indeed... the very instincts that evolution also endowed us with... greed, lust, jealousy, ambition, revenge, etc. etc. etc.

Quote by: Shade The top two reasons throughout history have been religion and the state.

No, you just named the two things that PREVENT us from committing crimes... religion to appeal to our better natures, and the state, to punish wrong doers. Indeed, both can be used for evil purposes, but on the whole, societies can't function without government.

If you believe otherwise you're simply dreaming, but hey, I'm a reasonable guy... show me an example of a successful society that functions without government and I'll change my opinion.

Quote by: Shade The reason I asked is because I'm curious: How did you become so enamored with the state? Parents? Spouse?

Artists are adept at observation, plus I possess a logical and pragmatic mind. I understand how things work. How did you come to believe in fantasy?

Quote by: Cephus Government is something that naturally forms from anarchy. If you abolished all forms of government, people with the same views would naturally gravitate together and form governments again. Anarchy simply cannot continue to exist for long.

Bingo... there it is.

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[Sonart]

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Quote by: Loser 1) This commandment was given to the Hebrews some 3,400 years ago. It was at a time when idol worship (graven images) was prevalent all around them. It wasn't the carving of these images that God was concerned with, it was their WORSHIP. At that time, these images were carved as idols of worship. Christianity teaches forgiveness and tolerance.

Yeah, so?? So were the other commandments given some 3,400 years ago. So now you get to "interpret" what commandments are still operable and which aren't?

Quote by: Loser 2) "Holy Cow"? Cite your reference, please.

I need a reference for the obvious? "Holy Cow" refers to the belief that Hindus worship cattle, and declaring them "holy", which takes in vain that which truly is holy... God. But if you insist, go here.

Quote by: Loser 3) No one is born a homosexual.

A straight up, ignorant lie. Ask any homosexual. You do know some homosexual well enough to ask them such a thing, don't you. Loser?

Quote by: Loser 4) "Shouldn't charge interest"? And your beef is? Your greed is not sanctioned by Christianity but it does teach forgiveness and tolerance.

My beef is that interest on loans is now a well established part of business, and perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of American Christians. Yet the Bible clearly and specifically forbids the charging of interest. Such picking and choosing of what is right and wrong is straight up hypocrisy.

Wouldn't you agree?

Quote by: Loser 5) Show where slavery is deemed a "perfectly acceptable institution".

I'm sorry to be the one to inform you, Loser, but morality is, in fact, relative. 2,000 years ago, slavery was a necessary and vital part of every civilized economy. It was the labor saving devices of the day, a part of everyday life, and the Bible - both old and new Testament - clearly accept it as such.

"Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever." - John 8:35

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving." - Colossians 3:22-24

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;" - Ephesians 6:5-6

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." - Titus 2:9-10

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." - 1 Timothy 6:1-2

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave." - 1 Corinthians 7:21-22

"You who are slaves must accept the authority of your masters. Do whatever they tell you — not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are harsh." - 1 Peter 2:18

And the Lord [Jesus] said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants [slaves], to give them their rations at the proper time? "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." - Luke 12:42-48

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever." - Exodus 21:2-6

6) Christianity actually teaches that women are equal with men and are in no way inferior. You're confusing your belief with that of the Bible.

Good lord, (ooops, there I go, taking Jesus name in vain) you're totally clueless to your own faith.

"A woman should learn [from men] in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." -- 1 Timothy 2:11-15

"I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3

"Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes." - 1 Peter 3:1-2

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Quote by: Loser Scientific reasoning has degenerated from rational, intelligent thinking to superstitious, mindless conjecture.

Said Loser as he's typing away on his modern computer.

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