Kerry has the power, why do you defend him so?

[Nephilim]

First, not ALL of the people who were on Kerry's boat supports him.

Those vets who were on the boats side by side with Kerry ARE eyewitnesses. More than one person was pulled from the water in the Rassman incident, so if not by Kerry's boat it would have to be by one of the others. To say that these other veterans are lying because they weren't on Kerry's boat is intellectually dishonest.

Instead of smearing these other veterans because they are giving their accounting and it is unfavorable (to put it nicely) to Kerry is a dishonorable act in and of itself. Shouldn't we demand Kerry release all of his records, just as was demanded of Bush? Shouldn't we hear all testimony on this, as it goes to the character of the man who seeks to be our President?

Another dishonorable action, was the DNC lawyers who threatened lawsuits against TV stations if they even aired the SBVFT ad. Could you imagine the outcry if the RNC had threatened the same against Moore's pack of lies movie?

[m5lange1]

Mr. V.
I thought I responded pretty solidly on the "Kerry fit for command" site.
But since you want to know...


1. The "Swift Boat Vets" are just as capable of lying as Kerry's crew. Obviously someone is lying.
Objectively who shall we believe? Why would people lie FOR Kerry? Why would they lie AGAINST Kerry? We should not base our criteria their political beliefs.
2. If EVEN ONE of Kerry's medals, hell if none of them are legitimate he still served this country in combat and deserves not to have these bozos ragging him on national TV. I would say the same for Dole and McCain and any other combat veteran.
Shall we now abandon all respect for our decorated soldiers until the validity of their accomplishments are investigated and we are sure EVERYBODY in that war agrees they deserve them? Or at least which party the belong to?

3. Regarding those medical records (sigh). For the sake of argument I am willing to concede that he flat out refuses to release them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Pay attention here.....Please read this carefully.
It is his right as an american to do so.
Did you go ahead and do stuff in High School because people called you Chicken? If so I hope you out grew it. I also do not want anybody in the White House who falls for that crap!!!!
And yes it is VERY similar. Neither a president nor a presidential candidate nor Joe Average for that matter should give up their rights evertime some opponent raises a hoard of accusers.
How can any american be angry at another for exercising an American freedom.
He should not be manipulated by mudslining
If this works.... on Kerry or Bush.... then the opposition sure knows how to make the otherside jump through hoops. Dig up some guys to make accusations and then scream coverup if the opponants don't do the little dog and pony trick.
Wh the hell is he going to convince???
YOU?
Seems pretty clear to me that he is not going to get your vote with or without these records.
THE RIGHT?
I would bet big bucks, no matter what he released the right wing vampires would be finding ways to accuse him of falsifiying them.
THE UNDECIDED MIDDLE?
Maybe some here but that is me. I for one was so appalled by that shameful smear of a veteran did a lot more to push me away from Bush than away from Kerry. A lot of us really are tired of the dirty politics.

This whole attack it too transparent. He was a combat veteran. Even for a short time and there is NO ONE who is not suck like glue to the right does not know that if Bush were the medal winner you guys would be screaming about those terrible dems trying to smear him.
(And I do not doubt that they would be there smearing him and I would be just as disgusted with them)!!!!

[waterfalllife]

I wouldnt want to drink the Kerry koolaid nor take the Bush bullet to my brain! Youre so quick to judge V, and dismiss anything that goes against the right. SO WHAT! He didnt release his medical records! Neither did Bush! Should the Dems be clawing for the medical records for his stay at a rehab clinic after too much nose candy? Or the full details of his numerous DWIs??? NO! Those are HIS to dole out as he pleases! Public and private lives SHOULD NOT intertwine!

NEITHER of them are deserving of a vote. THEY BOTH want to steal our liberties, our money, and our children! BI PARTISANSHIP IS NOT THE KEY!

Frankly, Im disgusted at the Repubs for this one. Just as I am with the Dems for their mudslinging. In a game like mudslinging, only the PIGS win.

[Mr.Vicchio]

m5,

You are CORRECT, he does NOT have to.

I never said he DID, but would you not agree that were he to release the records that are the heart of the SBVFT claims, it would clear up whose being honest?

Granted, someone IS lying, either they are, or Mr. Kerry is. Mr. Kerry could show good faith to the American people and release the records, and say "I hav enothing to hide" To not do so, leaves the impression that he in fact, does have something to hide.

The book Unfit for Command is #1 on the Amazon best seller list according to the radio as I drove in. That isn't good for Mr. Kerry to leave the situation open.

President Bush, has released as much information as he can, he has authorized everything to go out. While the question of did he, or didn't he show up.. and the like is stil not resolved, he has at the very least, not refused to release all of his records. Even if some were lost for a period. :)

And you are also correct that there would be Right wing pundits that would spin the information, to their advantage. I won't argue that.

But the fact still remanins, despite valiant attempts by many to avoid it. John F Kerry refuses to release the records that are at the heart of the SBVFT claims. By not releasing the information, he looks to be hiding something. Can anyone dispute that?

Yes, I acknowledge that not everyhting would be magically resolved should he release the information, but one of two things would occur. He would marginalize them, if his official records counter the SBVFT, or it would bolster thier claims if the records fail to counter thier claims.

I can only conclude that they would bolster the SBVFT claims by the very fact he refuses to release them.

And that, is the most damning part of it all.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Originally posted by waterfalllife, SO WHAT! He didnt release his medical records! Neither did Bush! Should the Dems be clawing for the medical records for his stay at a rehab clinic after too much nose candy? Or the full details of his numerous DWIs???

A:

Yes he did.

B:

I seem to remember election eve 2000 and the front page story of Bushes DWI. His single DWI. And the unbased, inproven charges of "nose candy" are just that, unfounded, unproven and unless someone has pics of Dubya snorting lines... unimportant.

[Samildanach]

If the records are confidential and he doesn't want to release them then he doesn't have to. Same for bush. End of argument. This is an example of the individual privacy that is so valued by so many people in your country I would have thought. Its such a trivial issue compared to the recent war thats still going on that I don't even consider it worthy of debate.

[Comrade]

Kerry is the one who decided we should elect him because he was in Vietnam, it is perfectly worthy of debate.

[Samildanach]

Actually I think Kerry hasn't decided you should elect him for any reason other than you agree with his policies. If his Vietnam image is a problem for you then don't take it into consideration when you judge him. Besdies you know the games politicians play. Kerry is angling for the war hero side, whereas Bush seems to be angling for the bumbling idiot image for some reason..maybe hes going for the sympathy vote.

[Comrade]

What policies?

His Nixon-esque secret plan to get us out of Iraq?

You can't tell me that Kerry's Vietnam record is not a major centerpiece in his campaign.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by m5lange1, 1. The "Swift Boat Vets" are just as capable of lying as Kerry's crew. Obviously someone is lying.

Exactly. Would it not serve the nation best to find out WHO it is that is lying? To dismiss this because "someone is lying" is absurd.

2. If EVEN ONE of Kerry's medals, hell if none of them are legitimate he still served this country in combat and deserves not to have these bozos ragging him on national TV. I would say the same for Dole and McCain and any other combat veteran.

Did you say the same thing when MoveON, the millions of $ Soros used in ads, and Michael Moore smeared Bush? Bush also served his nation and is a veteran, or does your argument only apply to COMBAT veterans? If so, what did you say about Clinton the draft dodger?

Shall we now abandon all respect for our decorated soldiers until the validity of their accomplishments are investigated and we are sure EVERYBODY in that war agrees they deserve them? Or at least which party the belong to?

Nearly all of the COMBAT veteransd in the SBVFT ad are highly decorated as well, and this isn't about "just anybodey", it is about a man who wishes to be the President and Commander in Chief. Tell me, if you had been in combat with a person who years later ran for the nations highest office and you knew he was lying about events you participated in simply to garner votes, would you remain silent? I would hope not.

3. Regarding those medical records (sigh). For the sake of argument I am willing to concede that he flat out refuses to release them.

Why? Could it be he is hioding something?

Pay attention here.....Please read this carefully.

OK.

It is his right as an american to do so.

Yes, it is. You seem to keeop forgetting he is running for President, and the fact that it was HIM that made his medals and combet service an issue. Whether he releases them at this point or not speaks volumes to me, since it was he that raised the issue to begin with.

Did you go ahead and do stuff in High School because people called you Chicken? If so I hope you out grew it. I also do not want anybody in the White House who falls for that crap!!!! And yes it is VERY similar. Neither a president nor a presidential candidate nor Joe Average for that matter should give up their rights evertime some opponent raises a hoard of accusers. How can any american be angry at another for exercising an American freedom.

Can we refrain from the histrionics and straw man arguments?

He should not be manipulated by mudslining If this works.... on Kerry or Bush.... then the opposition sure knows how to make the otherside jump through hoops. Dig up some guys to make accusations and then scream coverup if the opponants don't do the little dog and pony trick.

We do not know if this is mudslinging or simple truth. Strange thing you suggest, though, considering the Democrats and liberals have been slining mud at Bush for four years, almost all of which had to proven as unfounded and nothing but innuendo.

Wh the hell is he going to convince???

How about AMERICA? How about the entire world who pays close attention to US politics and Presidential elections?

I for one was so appalled by that shameful smear of a veteran did a lot more to push me away from Bush than away from Kerry.

But the left's smearing of a var greater number of decorated combat veterans by the left because they are speaking out is OK.... is that what you are saying? How about the shameful smearing of another veteran that has been going on for years now - Bush? If your statement held as much weight as it sounded, those PROVEN lies the left has hurled at Bush all these years would have drieven you so far from the left that you wouldn't even care about this issue, as your mind would have been firmly made up long ago.

A lot of us really are tired of the dirty politics.

I have been tired of them for decades, but in this instance the only thing the right has done that might be considered dirty politics is this, if it proves to be false for politics and nothing else. Whereas the left wing vampires (LMAO) have been spewing lies and hate speech at Bush for a long time now. I can provide quote after quote after quote from the Democrats that are pure lies and innuendo anbd hate speech against Bush, can you do the opposite?

This whole attack it too transparent. He was a combat veteran. Even for a short time and there is NO ONE who is not suck like glue to the right does not know that if Bush were the medal winner you guys would be screaming about those terrible dems trying to smear him.

ROFLMAO! Where have you been for the last four years? Lets see: "Bush was AWOL", Bush was a deserter", Bush knew about the 9-11 attacks before hand", "Bush lied us into a war"; all these are out and out lies merely to smear Bush.

(And I do not doubt that they would be there smearing him and I would be just as disgusted with them)!!!!

Somehow, I don't believe you.

[Samildanach]

Yes but theres one or two points about bush that can't be called into question.

1. Hes a fundamentalist fanatic...personally if we are going to have a fanatic at the helm I'd rather have Osama, at least he knows how to fight a war.
2. Bush comes across as a bumbling incompetent at the best of times even with his speeches etc all prepared, hence his latest bushism.
I mean come on how can you get it wrong. all you have to do is read the piece of paper and he can't even do that right. Thats probably why they didn't let him take an active role in the war during his service. I wouldn't want a guy over me who couldn't get his orders correct.

[Comrade]

Well, we could have someone who bumbles through speeches or we can have someone with no principles and shifts his policies with the political wind.

[Samildanach]

Well neither is really good for America but at least Kerry looks/appears semi competent. The only time most people see the president IS when hes making speeches. It doesn't help Americas image internally or internationally when you have some guy who appears to be thinking up ways to attack his own country along with the terrorists. I mean it makes the country into a laughing stock. In politics, like fashion, image is everything and Bush just doesn't have that image.

[Comrade]

I don't give one rat if France or China is laughing at us because the President isn't good at speaking.
Europe figures out ways to laugh at us no matter what. It must make them feel good or something.

I would rather have a president who believes democracy and security and all that are worth fighting for than a president who was for those things before he was against them.

[Samildanach]

Hell its not just France or China, be realistic, its the rest of the civilised world. Every time there is a new bushism they all kill themselves laughing, hell you must've laughed when someone does something stupid like trips down the steps or falls in a hole. Same difference. I would have to say that for comedy value Bush is up there with the best of them. Maybe he can secure a spot late nite doing standup after he loses the election.

[Comrade]

The rest of the world is free to hate us. I have no problems with people who supported the dictator Saddam over democracy; and others; communists, petty despots, whatever, not being my friends

[Samildanach]

Hate hate hate with you its all about hate. Most of the world does not hate America, they just dislike them for throwing their weight around is all. Its like a big brother bullying you. No one likes a bully on an individual or collective level.

[Comrade]

Well there's not a whole lot I can do about that. Once again, if us "throwing our weight around" installing democracies and defending ourselves makes them antsy, that's their problem.

Maybe they should pay for a military so they can enforce their own foreign policy.

[Samildanach]

Yeah but when you go defending yourselves you usually should pick on the person who was responsible for hitting you in the first place. Bush basically got hit in theface and turned around and bashed the next guy standing in the queue. as for installing democracies, don't make me laugh....Iraq is a long way from being anywhere near stable enough to make that claim, at the moment its more like a state based on anarchy. I might agree with you in five years time when things may have settled down a bit and if you are lucky and I mean really lucky then democracy may well be the end result which would be the happy ending to the bedtime story. However its quite possible that the country will implode well before then with the result being a new dictator or something similar.

[Samildanach]

Crap bad luck double post.