Oratorical Prowess

[tPA]

Much has been made about Obama's skill as a speaker, and I've often heard that his speaking abilities, the ability to "fire people up" is perhaps the greatest reason to vote for him--that he can inspire people to do great things.

Well, I came across this quote and I just want to put it out there to debate the veracity of the claim that being a great speaker is indicative of being a great leader.

The speaker from the heart is different. He may have the skills of the master of reasoning. They are however only tools he uses as a true rhetorical virtuoso. He has abilities not found in the reasoning speaker. He combines clear diction with simple argumentation, and instinct tells him what to say and how to say it. Language is united with ideas. He knows the secret corners and aspects of the mass soul and knows how to reach and touch them. His speeches are masterpieces of declamation. He outlines people and conditions; he inscribes his theses on the tablet of the age; with deep and noble passion he explains the pillars of his world view. His voice reaches out from the depths of his blood into the depths of the souls of his listeners. He brings to expression the secrets of the human soul. He rouses the tired and lazy, fires up the indifferent and the doubting, turns cowards into men and weaklings into heroes.

...

His ability to reach the masses is unique and remarkable, fitting no organizational scheme or dogma. It would be ridiculous to think he attended some sort of speaker school; he is a rhetorical genius who developed his own abilities with no help from anyone else. One cannot imagine that {he} ever spoke differently than he does today, or that he will ever speak differently. He speaks his heart, and therefore reaches the hearts of those who hear him. He has the amazing gift of sensing what is in the air. He has the ability to express things so clearly, logically and directly that listeners are convinced that that is what they have always thought themselves. That is the true secret of the effectiveness of {his} speeches. {He} is neither a speaker from reason nor from the heart. He uses both, depending on the needs of the moment. The essential characteristics of his speeches to the people are: clear organization, irrefutable logical reasoning, simplicity and clarity of expression, razor-sharp dialectic, a developed and sure instinct for the masses and their feelings, an electrifying emotional appeal that is used sparingly, and the ability to reach out to the souls of the people in a way that never goes unanswered.

[Matt W]

Source? All quotes must be sourced, unless you want to get the site in legal trouble.

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[Sonart]

.

His source is this, Matt...

The Fuhrer as a Speaker, by Dr. Joseph Goebbels

Seems young master tPA doesn't need hardly any reason at all to jump straight to Godwin's Law. Obama has a reputation as a good speaker... by golly, just like Hitler!

You're a real slimeball piece of work, you are, tP.

John McCain likes to drink beer.... JUST LIKE ADOLPH HITLER AND HIS NAZI SS! Weeee, isn't this fun!!

Here's a better one, tP... how to go to war in Iraq.

"People don't want war, but, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -- Herman Goering

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[RickSp]

Interesting. tPA quotes Goebbels without attribution just like Sarah Palin quoted Westbrook Pegler, again without attribution, in her speech before the Republican Nation Convention. Pegler was a rabid anti-Semite who advocated the assassination of both FDR and Robert Kennedy.

Appears to be a trend developing here.

Robert Kennedy Jr. On Sarah Palin

Fascist writer Westbrook Pegler, an avowed racist who Sarah Palin approvingly quoted in her acceptance speech for the moral superiority of small town values, expressed his fervent hope about my father, Robert F. Kennedy, as he contemplated his own run for the presidency in 1965, that "some white patriot of the Southern tier will spatter his spoonful of brains in public premises before the snow flies." It might be worth asking Governor Palin for a tally of the other favorites from her reading list.

Some folks thought Palin was a pretty good orator in her little speech too.

[tPA]

Quote by: Sonart . His source is this, Matt... The Fuhrer as a Speaker, by Dr. Joseph Goebbels Seems young master tPA doesn't need hardly any reason at all to jump straight to Godwin's Law. Obama has a reputation as a good speaker... by golly, just like Hitler! You're a real slimeball piece of work, you are, tP. John McCain likes to drink beer.... JUST LIKE ADOLPH HITLER AND HIS NAZI SS! Weeee, isn't this fun!! Here's a better one, tP... how to go to war in Iraq. "People don't want war, but, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -- Herman Goering .

Godwin's has nothing to do with it---the Left has been slandering GWBush for 7 years based on what?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect our leaders to have more to offer than good oratorical skills. The biggest selling point of Obama is that he's A) a fresh face that B) is a good speaker who inspires people. My point in posting it was to point out that there are lots of people who inspire cults of personality. Doesn't mean they have positive things to offer society. Making people "feel good" is hardly resume-worthy material.

Obama is frightening for the simple fact that few people of import question him.

George Bush was questioned because his grandfather was a banker that happened to do business with Germany. Barack Obama has knowingly associated with anti-American extremists and known and avowed terrorists, and pointing it out is a "smear tactic." He launched his political career in the living room of one of the founders of a domestic terrorist group; he attended a church for twenty years that was lead by an extremist, anti-American "Black Liberation theology" preacher; he dedicated his first autobiography (which is laughable in and of itself---what has he accomplished that is worth an autobiography, let alone two?!) to a known Communist. But when people bring these up it's called a smear or baseless and empty.

And actually, Hitler was an anti-smoking zealot who was a vegetarian. Does that mean Seattle tree-hugger types are Nazis?

Firing people up is hardly a qualification to be a leader. The man was hardly able to run the Annnenberg Project---he's supposed to be the leader of the Free World?!

[tPA]

Quote by: RickSp Interesting. tPA quotes Goebbels without attribution just like Sarah Palin quoted Westbrook Pegler, again without attribution, in her speech before the Republican Nation Convention. Pegler was a rabid anti-Semite who advocated the assassination of both FDR and Robert Kennedy. Appears to be a trend developing here. Robert Kennedy Jr. On Sarah Palin Some folks thought Palin was a pretty good orator in her little speech too.

First of all, the only description of Palin as a speaker, with which I am familiar, is "folksy."

Secondly, Barack Obama has talked about "just words" making all sorts of changes. He ripped it off from Deval Patrick, who later said that he told Obama it was OK to use it. Hooray for rhetorical skills! How much talent does it take to use someone else's words?

That Palin used a line from an anti-semite is hardly indicative of her support for Pegler's views. Perhaps you should look into Obama's relationship with Louis Farrakhan... We can parse individual, "anonymously" attributed lines all you want. Obama's ONLY record is of anti-American fatalistic naivete and defeatism. Palin read a speech prepared by someone else. Groundbreaking....

Let's start a discussion about the fight for civil rights, shall we (since you brought up Pegler). Which party was it that seceded in the mid 1800s (and which party was started by abolitionists)? Which party opposed the amendments that gave freed slaves the rights they were previously denied? Which party came up with Jim Crow? Which party supported segregation? Which party opposed the Civil Rights acts? And which party, today, is working for total government dependence (and thus restriction of individual rights)?

[tPA]

Hmmmm, I thought Obama's speech sounded familiar!


from 9/5/08 (Obama gave his anti-Lipstick speech on 9/9/08)

[RickSp]

Amusing tPa. You get caught trying to play "gotcha". You play a childish game trying to link Obama with Goebbels and you don't get away with it, yet you still have the unmitigated gall to try to blame the Democrats for civil rights failures in the 1800s! Give me a break.

I do note your typical insults, calling Obama anti-American and naive while you excuse Simple Sarah for quoting a fascist who called for the assassination of a president! This is Sarah who has been courting America hating secessionists and whose husband was a member of the secessionist party for seven years.

So cut the crap. It is not worth my time.

[RickSp]

LOL, getting cartoonish are we tPa? Nice of you to point out that McSame and Simple Sarah are just Bush/Rove clones. So true.

[tPA]

Quote by: Sonart .Seems young master tPA doesn't need hardly any reason at all to jump straight to Godwin's Law. Obama has a reputation as a good speaker... by golly, just like Hitler.

This is so ridiculous. Noticing, and pointing out, a similarity cannot be dismissed simply because it's been defined as a loss by a Usenet poster nearly 20 years ago. That it can be called Godwin's Law does not refute its validity. You are merely dodging the issue: so what if he's a good speaker. Good speakers have nothing to offer but nice words. What about Obama's history or record should lead us to believe that he will bring positive changes? He said himself (well, after lifting it from someone else) that "just words" have made lots of changes in the world. What changes does he offer?

[tPA]

Quote by: RickSp LOL, getting cartoonish are we tPa? Nice of you to point out that McSame and Simple Sarah are just Bush/Rove clones. So true.

How did I? McCain has differed with Bush on several substantial issues. Republicans could hardly stomach the thought of him as their nominee due to the differences he's had with the party.

Please explain how he offers four more years of "failed Bush policies" (and please go beyond the naive "he won't talk to our enemies" tripe).

[tPA]

Quote by: RickSp Amusing tPa. You get caught trying to play "gotcha". You play a childish game trying to link Obama with Goebbels and you don't get away with it, yet you still have the unmitigated gall to try to blame the Democrats for civil rights failures in the 1800s! Give me a break. I do note your typical insults, calling Obama anti-American and naive while you excuse Simple Sarah for quoting a fascist who called for the assassination of a president! This is Sarah who has been courting America hating secessionists and whose husband was a member of the secessionist party for seven years. So cut the crap. It is not worth my time.

Is the quote not applicable to Obama?

And answer the questions: who has historically opposed civil rights, up to the last 45 years or so? You obviously know the answer...

I didn't say Obama is anti-American, I said he's associated with people who are virulently (and violently, sometimes) anti-America. That I said it, and that it's been said before, doesn't make it a "tired old talking point." Perhaps there is some truth to it, when all the influential people in his past have been enemies of the country in which they live, on some level. I didn't excuse her--I said that she read a speech someone else prepared, and using one line from a speech is hardly enough evidence to convict her of racist or separatist leanings. Obama has a lifetime of anti-American associates.

And please do a little more research. Vermont has groups moving to secede--should we question any politician out of Vermont?

[tPA]

Quote by: RickSp LOL, getting cartoonish are we tPa? Nice of you to point out that McSame and Simple Sarah are just Bush/Rove clones. So true.

Nice dodging of Obama's plagiarism, too...

[megadeth425]

How did I? McCain has differed with Bush on several substantial issues. Republicans could hardly stomach the thought of him as their nominee due to the differences he's had with the party.

Until he fell in line, and changed his positions to be more in-tune with the Republican base. He sold out to become another Bush-parroting Republican.

Please explain how he offers four more years of "failed Bush policies" (and please go beyond the naive "he won't talk to our enemies" tripe).

Why? The "shoot first, ask later" concept of the Bush administration is a great example.
If you need another, how about his intention to continue the economic policies of the Bush adminstration? He wants to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. In fact, he wants to increase the tax cuts to more disproportionately favor the rich.

McCain used to differ from Bush. Now he's done everything short of putting on an orange vest and going into the woods to kill something to prove he's a loyal, hardcore Republican. All that talk of being a 'maverick' has been a load of crap since the beginning of the primaries.

[RickSp]

Quote by: tPA Nice dodging of Obama's plagiarism, too...

You lack the honesty to admit that you were trying to tie Obama to Hitler. Pathetic.

Then you show a cartoon which reiterates themes that Obama has been raising for many months and claim it demonstrates "plagiarism".

That is nothing less than idiotic.

[Matt W]

Let's drop the personal sniping, shall we? Raise the tone or don't post.

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[Okieslims]

I think you can tie Obama to Hitler.

Hitler was the most influential man in history. His speaches riled up a nation of God fearing people and convinced them it wasn't immoral to kill jews. Now that's horrible, but it's also amazing. It shows the power of being a great communicater. MLK can be compared to Hitler. He inspired change with his powerful speaches. JFK was a great speaker. Ronald Reagan was beloved for his powerful speaches, eventhough there was a lot of things he could have done better as a president. His speaches made you feel patriotic. Obama has that quality. Will he use it for good or evil?

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: tPA Godwin's has nothing to do with it---the Left has been slandering GWBush for 7 years based on what?

His complete and utter incompetence as President, as presaged by his inability to speak coherently.

So how does this make someone who can speak in coherent paragraphs a Nazi???

Quote by: tPA I don't think it's unreasonable to expect our leaders to have more to offer than good oratorical skills.

I don't think it's unreasonable not to, either. After all, a good leader should inspire us... not embarrass us.

And besides, look at the track record.

Reagan -- great speaker -- beloved President
Clinton -- great speaker -- even more popular than Reagan
Dubya -- the Worst President ever

Quote by: tPA Making people "feel good" is hardly resume-worthy material.

To the contrary... it was among Reagan's and Clinton's greatest features.

Do you actually think about any of the things you write here?

Quote by: tPA And actually, Hitler was an anti-smoking zealot who was a vegetarian.

So?? He liked German Shepherds. He liked blondes. He liked to paint landscapes. I'm not the one making ridiculous connections to Hitler, you are.

Quote by: tPA Does that mean Seattle tree-hugger types are Nazis?

Apparently in your mind, yeah. And landscape artists. And German Shepherd owners. And VW owners.

Quote by: tPA Firing people up is hardly a qualification to be a leader.

It's not???? On what planet?

Quote by: tPA That it can be called Godwin's Law does not refute its validity. You are merely dodging the issue: so what if he's a good speaker.

Well for one, it doesn't make him Adolph Hitler.

For another, whether you accept it or not, oratory is, in fact, an important skill for anyone who would lead people.

Quote by: tPA How did I? McCain has differed with Bush on several substantial issues.

And agreed with Bush on many more. Certainly far more than Obama and Biden.

.

[tPA]

Quote by: RickSp You lack the honesty to admit that you were trying to tie Obama to Hitler. Pathetic. Then you show a cartoon which reiterates themes that Obama has been raising for many months and claim it demonstrates "plagiarism". That is nothing less than idiotic.

Washington Post, 9/5/08


Obama, 9/9/08
YouTube - Obama's Take On McCain's Version Of Change

Please try to keep up.

plagiarism [play‐jă‐rizm], the theft of ideas (such as the plots of narrative or dramatic works) or of written passages or works, where these are passed off as one's own work without acknowledgement of their true origin; or a piece of writing thus stolen.

Did Obama attribute the cartoon to Toles? Did you even listen to his speech, wherein he says, almost verbatim, the Post cartoon? And this7 is our great Savior?

I wasn't "tying" him to Hitler, I was comparing the adulation that people give him for his oratorical skills to those that Goebbels gave Der Fuhrer. Great speaking skills do not a great man make. If he has a record to support his speaking skills, terrific; even better would be a clear vision of what he wants to accomplish.

"Change" is a buzzword, not a goal.

[tPA]

Quote by: Sonart .His complete and utter incompetence as President, as presaged by his inability to speak coherently. So how does this make someone who can speak in coherent paragraphs a Nazi???

Please, tell me you haven't seen or heard the comparisons of Bush to Hitler. THAT is the comparison to which I was referring. We've been brutalized with depiction after depiction of Bush as Der Fuhrer for nearly seven years now.

I don't think it's unreasonable not to, either. After all, a good leader should inspire us... not embarrass us.

Inspire us to what? "Change"? How, and change to what? Reagan had a clear goal---defeat communism. Clinton had a clear goal---fix and strengthen the economy. Obama's goal is "not four more years of Rove style politics!"

And besides, look at the track record. Reagan -- great speaker -- beloved President Clinton -- great speaker -- even more popular than Reagan Dubya -- the Worst President ever

Yes, let's look at Obama's track record. People who have influenced him (his past and present associations). Voting record. What, pray tell, should lead us to believe that he will be anything other than a far-left ideologue who is out of touch (or at least out of sync) with probably 90% of the country ideologically?

To the contrary... it was among Reagan's and Clinton's greatest features. Do you actually think about any of the things you write here?

And again, they had clear goals, and were centrist enough to be able to inspire both sides to action (or at least inaction). And yes, I do think about them. Do you think about what other people write? I am pretty open-minded--convince me that I'm wrong and I will sway your way. Nothing about any argument that has been made for Obama has had any sort of intellectual or moral weight, in my estimation.

So?? He liked German Shepherds. He liked blondes. He liked to paint landscapes. I'm not the one making ridiculous connections to Hitler, you are.

By some accounts, he was a coprophile, too. I guess you missed my tongue-in-cheek reference.

For another, whether you accept it or not, oratory is, in fact, an important skill for anyone who would lead people.

Right, speaking is a necessary quality in making known your clear goals and objectives. Bumbling it, as Bush did, leads people to not support you. Being vague in it, as Obama is, leads people to blindly accept whatever you say because it "sounds good" and so don't question the goals or motivations.

And agreed with Bush on many more. Certainly far more than Obama and Biden.

And Obama has voted with the Democratic party roughly 95% of the time. Bipartisan, indeed...