Why won't McCain release his fully military records?

[barts]

When they were running for President, both John Kerry and George Bush released their full military records, not just a few selected pages. Why won't John McCain release all of his military records? He must be hiding something or he'd release them. A major part of McCain's argument for being ready to be Commander in Chief is his military experience. Are American voters supposed to just take his word about his military career? They shouldn't because we know that McCain's campaign has already lied about McCain's record.

What is McCain, the war hero, afraid of?

[xyzer]

I certainly have not read or seen any articles proving any part of Senator MaCain's military record has been hidden?
I don't think the references shows it either. There is some subjective evidence that some associates thought he should stay around for a promotion but he didn't! The reasons for that are not part of any official record.(nor should they be) They are personal and as the author of the reference indicates can be interpreted or fabricated by most anyone aware of them.

I was not aware that Kerry ever turned over his complete records before the election. Last I read some 100 pages were not turned over before the actual election day? Can you show a site(reference) that all his military records were divulged before the election? If so lets have a site whic proves it?.

[barts]

Quote by: xyzer I certainly have not read or seen any articles proving any part of Senator MaCain's military record has been hidden? ... I was not aware that Kerry ever turned over his complete records before the election. Last I read some 100 pages were not turned over before the actual election day?

Does it follow, xyzer, that if you, personally, have not read or seen any articles about McCain not releasing his full military records that McCain did release them? I think not. However, if he did release all of them, where can they be found? You must know.

As for John Kerry, is he running for President again? At any rate, here you are: Kerry allows Navy release of military, medical records.

So where are John McCain's full military records? Why hasn't McCain signed the Standard Form 180, authorizing the Navy to release an 'undeleted copy of his 'complete military service record and medical record.

If you'd like a range of links about McCain's military record, Google "John McCain and Standard Form 180". The list of people asking the question raised in this thread is long.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: xyzer I was not aware that Kerry ever turned over his complete records before the election. Last I read some 100 pages were not turned over before the actual election day? Can you show a site(reference) that all his military records were divulged before the election? If so lets have a site which proves it?

If I found it would you read it and accept it as true? No? Here it is anyway.

The Navy released everything except personal records which they are never allowed to release for anybody. Also there's a bonus George Bush record on the same page; scroll down a bit to get past it.

FindLaw News: Election Law Coverage 2004: Documents

[Nono]

He had lots of disciplinary problems at Annapolis and finished fifth from the bottom of his class. But was nevertheless accepted for flight training -- oh right, I forgot his father was an admiral.

We know the rest, don't we? Is there anything being covered up? I doubt it.

[barts]

Quote by: Nono We know the rest, don't we? Is there anything being covered up? I doubt it.

Actually, we can't be sure that very much of what John McCain says about his military career is true, including the details of his POW story. There's talk of McCain plagiarizing from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn the cross in the dirt story, for example.

We know from McCain's record--from the naval academy to the Keating Five--that McCain is not the most ethical, truthful, trustworthy person one might like.

If he's not got something to hide, why won't he release his military records?

Personally, I am at point where I don't believe anything McCain says about his life, including his time as a POW, unless it's backed up with reputable third party verification.

For example, McCain claims he was offered early release by the Vietnamese when they learned his father was an admiral, but he refused to leave the POW camp. How do you refuse to leave a POW camp? Is McCain saying that POWs had control over the Vietnamese releasing them or not? I may be wrong, but that sounds nuts. Since when do prisoners decide if they leave prison or not.

Show us the military records, John.

[Nono]

Quote by: barts How do you refuse to leave a POW camp?

By refusing to go along with the deal that will get you released (it not being a straight offer).

His fellow POW, the highly decorated Philip Butler, has this to say about it:

John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first.

Butler also finishes his article by announcing that he will certainly not be voting for McCain in November.
His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button

[barts]

Quote by: Nono By refusing to go along with the deal that will get you released (it not being a straight offer). Butler also finishes his article by announcing that he will certainly not be voting for McCain in November. His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button

Thanks, Nono. It would seem that McCain's POW experiences is, indeed, being "enhanced" for political purposes. All the more reason for McCain to release his military records.

Regardless of the early release conditions, McCain did give up information. See
McCain's P.O.W. story: Problems.

Because McCain is running for high office and is exploiting his POW status to win votes, it's reasonable for voters to have the whole story, not just the bits that McCain offers. The real story--or at least much of it--is in the military records he doesn't want the voters to see. What's he hiding? And why? I expect there's more to the story than McCain wants heard.

[xyzer]

Who is on first here?
Barts says

When they were running for President, both John Kerry and George Bush released their full military records, not just a few selected pages

I responded that I thought Kerry had not released his FULL record before the Election!
Thanatos then posts a reference that confirms Kerry did not release all his records til' 2005? Thanks for making my point Thanatos.

Then Nono chimes in with the Butler story which in effect shows that McCains story of being offered a release from POW status was correct.
Butler received the same offer. I don't know how that relates to the Kerry story. But evidently Nono and the Huffington Post do think it does?
Also the Daily Kos is a vitriolic anti coonservative site not known for its accuracy when the facts don't agree with its position?

Getting back to my original post. McCains record has not been hidden and nor has the brave refusal he made and other prisoners made when offered their release for aiding the enemy in its propaganda efforts. Put yourself in the same position as McCain who was severely injured, tortured and sick actually refusing release until it was his turn.

Who is on first anyway?

[Chaossaber314]

Attacking McCain's POW status always seems like an incredibly low, below the belt move. I don't pretend to know whether or not it's 100% accurate but unless you have incontrovertible proof that he's lying, it's not a subject you put a "maybe" by.

Plus, there's no need. McCain can be attacked on any number of gaffs he's made and get this... HIS POLICY!

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Quote by: barts When they were running for President, both John Kerry and George Bush released their full military records, not just a few selected pages. Why won't John McCain release all of his military records?

Because they are {personal.} You should know that by now.

Quote by: barts He must be hiding something or he'd release them.

And? Why can't he hide something?

Quote by: barts A major part of McCain's argument for being ready to be Commander in Chief is his military experience. Are American voters supposed to just take his word about his military career?

Why not?

Quote by: barts They shouldn't because we know that McCain's campaign has already lied about McCain's record.

So.

Quote by: barts What is McCain, the war hero, afraid of?

People looking into his {personal} records.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Attacking McCain's POW status always seems like an incredibly low, below the belt move.

Are you seriously claiming that McCain can make any statements about his POW status in support of his campaign without having such statements questioned?

[Morality Games]

Quote by: Zeebadee Are you seriously claiming that McCain can make any statements about his POW status in support of his campaign without having such statements questioned?

Of course. Questioning such claims is unpatriotic and makes you a bad citizen, not to mention a horrific human being.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Morality Games Of course. Questioning such claims is unpatriotic and makes you a bad citizen, not to mention a horrific human being.

We should question (and, in my view, oppose) McCain extensively, but the focus should not be on his POW experience.

Grandpa h.

[xyzer]

Point well taken grandpa.

We should question (and, in my view, oppose) McCain extensively, but the focus should not be on his POW experience.

Though I favor McCain, I don't agree with all he says or he stands for.
And I don't think Obama should be let off the hook for his associations(Rezko, Ayers, Wright) anymore than McCain for some of his past actions and statments.. Thats politics

[barts]

Quote by: grandpa We should question (and, in my view, oppose) McCain extensively, but the focus should not be on his POW experience. Grandpa h.

Grandpa h., because McCain and his campaign claim that McCain's military record and his POW status make him a better choice for President than Obama, every aspect of his military record should be open to scrutiny.

We know McCain lies. Recently he claimed that Palin sold the Alaska corporate jet at a profit which was a lie. There's questions that he plagiarized a story from the Gulag Archipelago about a guard marking a cross in the dirt. In an earlier post, I added a link about how McCain had claimed he turned down a career path to Admiral, another lie.

If McCain wants to sell his bona fides to be President with his military record, he needs to show American voters what the military record in fact is. He does that by doing what others have done. Sign the forms so the Navy can release all of his record. He's not doing that. Why? What is McCain hidng? What does want to keep American voters from seeing?

[grandpa]

Quote by: xyzer Point well taken grandpa. Though I favor McCain, I don't agree with all he says or he stands for.

I disagree with virtually everything he stands for.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: barts Grandpa h., because McCain and his campaign claim that McCain's military record and his POW status make him a better choice for President than Obama, every aspect of his military record should be open to scrutiny. We know McCain lies.

He's bad enough when he tells the truth (as rare as that is). Still, I don't think his POW experience is that important either way.

Grandpa h.

[barts]

Quote by: grandpa He's bad enough when he tells the truth (as rare as that is). Still, I don't think his POW experience is that important either way. Grandpa h.

Help me understand why his POW experience is not important when it's invoked by McCain, his running mate, and his campaign as a matter of routine and as a shield against criticism. I ask sincerely.

[grandpa]

Quote by: barts Help me understand why his POW experience is not important when it's invoked by McCain, his running mate, and his campaign as a matter of routine and as a shield against criticism. I ask sincerely.

Because it's irrelevant to his policies, and should be regarded as such. This theory that politicians should be veterans (or Christians, or married) should be rejected outright. The attention should primarily be on the issues. It's sort of like when a person criticizes other nations' policies (such as Sharia Law and human rights in the Islamic World). Yes, we should do that to an extent, but the focus should really be on us and what we're doing. People should primarily focus on their own abusive governments, not on how much of a Rambo a particular candidate has been or how wicked some other country is.

Grandpa h.