Characteristics of a Police/Security State

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gr8fuldaniel,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A police state exists when federal and state police mechanisms: 1) Serve the central government instead of serving the citizens 2) Enforce the policies of the central government instead of responding primarily to criminal misdeeds 3) Spy on and intimidate citizens[/b]

1st off, I need to point out that I was quoting the link provided, human error, I apologize for not using the quote button. I am not lame, just human. Heres the Link, Its a very cool site.


1) Serve the central government instead of serving the citizens

Originally posted by Rainbow,@ #1 A syllogism. "Police" as well as "Army" and "Intelligence" are FUNDAMENTS for a particular country existance (!) Otherwise, a country no longer exists. Since people - under a democratic state's rules - have elected a government, then that government represents those people.

I agree with the 1st half of your statement. However, our government was not elected, rather appointed by 5 supreme court justices. These judges declared the former Blue state to be Red on that day. Although most citizens cast a vote, many were turned away at the polls.
Our government is no longer "Of the people, by the people, and for the people"
Resident Bush declared a state of emergency, (as all presidents since March 1933, have done) in March 2001,never rescinds it and declared another state of emergency (which empowers the president with the powers of a dictator) in Sept 2001. These things are covered in depth HERE (Declared State of Emergency in USA since 1933?).

2) Enforce the policies of the central government instead of responding primarily to criminal misdeeds

#2 It sounds like a populistic slogan or a claptrap. What does it mean ? Can you be a little more specific ?

The Patriot Act is a good example of this. The police state has sweeping powers above civil rights. We the people no longer have the right to legal representation. Can be held without charge. Indefinately. You have NO Rights, because under Executive Order the US Constitution is rolled back. The freedom of information Act was one of the first things Bush the Lesser rolled back when he came to power. This covered up a bloody past, a horrible past. His personal and family past. Yet the Government has access to all of your records right down to the books you check out at the neighborhood library. They do not need probable cause anymore. Remember the days when the cops had to get a warrant? And if they Arrested you, they had to offer some kind of REASON? Those days are long gone. Thanks to the Un-Patriot Act. This also answers the 3rd statement:

3) Spy on and intimidate citizens
<!--QuoteBegin-Rainbow,
#3
That part of "Police" and (espacially) "Intelligence" tasks is :
- to control citizens
A "spying on its citizens" is a part of that "assigment". That is exactly where the information is coming from.
Otherwise violence spreads around; majority of crimes are not solved; criminals go free; spies from all over the world rule in that country and as the final result the "anarchy" will fluorish in its full extent.

Generally, what "Police" does and what it should do, that is yet another matter.
People should create political and administrative mechanisms (bodies) to control "Police".
Complaints ? To those who vote. They have elected people who SHOULD serve all the citizens. It seems that voters - except voting - do not much in that matter.[/quote] Sounds like you are in agreement with Fascism. I am not. There are governments that abuse their power by taking away the rights of people. There are God given rights that were outlined in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. If you think you are offering any security by denying these rights, even "temporarily" you are decieved.

Our citizens (With the exceptions of those in power who were complicit and conspiratory. Those who had prior knowledge, who either allowed the tradgedy to happen or were involved in the cover-up) did not attack us on 911. Those in power who will make all good Americans suspect, when it was a foreign individual (not even a country) who attacked us, is not improving the human condition.

Torture is Fascist, have you seen them bring in the lawyers to justify these crimes against humanity. Torture is truly the sport of Kings, but the curse of a people. Our evil leaders are looking for loopholes in the Geneva Convention and International Human Rights. These murderers should have been banished from our shores. The crimes against humanity at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib were not the acts of a few in the lower ranks, but the policy of a corrupt administration. May God see their actions and their hearts and deal with them in haste, before more innocent children are raped and tortured and murdered for fun.

[Liberty Landing]

The entire purpose behind a totalitarian state is to win the people's cooperation in the war against their rights.

This is why I believe police states, which attempt to do that through coercion, are outdated. No one uses them anymore. The modern totalitarian state buys people's cooperation, which is why we've seen the rise of the welfare state.

This of course does not neglect the existence of certain police-state like controls, since you can't just keep people from exercising rights by paying them off -- there has to be a mechanism in place to enforce it. But far and away the biggest enemy to our rights and liberties is the welfare state that is conjoined with police powers.

Just my two cents.

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, I agree with the 1st half of your statement. However, our government was not elected, rather appointed by 5 supreme court justices. These judges declared  the former Blue state to be Red on that day. Although most citizens cast a vote, many were turned away at the polls. Our government is no longer "Of the people, by the people, and for the people" Resident Bush declared a state of emergency, (as all presidents since March 1933, have done) in March 2001,never rescinds it and declared another state of emergency (which empowers the president with the powers of a dictator) in Sept 2001. These things are covered in depth HERE (Declared State of Emergency in USA since 1933?).  The Patriot Act is a good example of this. The police state has sweeping powers above civil rights. We the people no longer have the right to legal representation. Can be held without charge. Indefinately. You have NO Rights, because under Executive Order the US Constitution is rolled back. The freedom of information Act was one of the first things Bush the Lesser rolled back when he came to power. This covered up a bloody past, a horrible past. His personal and family past. Yet the Government has access  to all of your records right down to the books you check out at the neighborhood library. They do not need probable cause anymore. Remember the days when the cops had to get a warrant? And if they Arrested you, they had to offer some kind of REASON? Those days are long gone. Thanks to the Un-Patriot Act. This also answers the 3rd statement Sounds like you are in agreement with Fascism. I am not. There are governments that abuse their power by taking away the rights of people. There are God given rights that were outlined in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. If you think you are offering any security by denying these rights, even "temporarily" you are decieved. Our citizens (With the exceptions of those in power who were complicit and conspiratory. Those who had prior knowledge, who either allowed the tradgedy to happen or were involved in the cover-up) did not attack us on 911. Those in power who will make all good Americans suspect, when it was a foreign individual (not even a country) who attacked us, is not improving the human condition. Torture is Fascist, have you seen them bring in the lawyers to justify these crimes against humanity. Torture is truly the sport of Kings, but the curse of a people. Our evil leaders are looking for loopholes in the Geneva Convention and International Human Rights. These murderers should have been banished from our shores. The crimes against humanity at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib were not the acts of a few in the lower ranks, but the policy of a corrupt administration. May God see their actions and their hearts and deal with them in haste, before more innocent children are raped and tortured and murdered for fun.

#1
Here, it is the part you should read within my post, and which is the answer :
"Generally, what "Police" does and what it should do, that is yet another matter.
People should create political and administrative mechanisms (bodies) to control "Police"."

Unless you are joking, you have no clue on the Law, Consitution, and how a system works.
Since people accept the Law and Constitution, then automatically these people accept elected (by THEMSELVES !) representatives.
The Law and Constitution gives ALL THE RIGHTS (granted within that Law and Constitution) to a person who rules, while majority of citizens APPROVE that Law and Constitution.

Bush does not represent your business ? or does not comply with your demands ?
Then, go to your elected representative and tell him/her that. This is EXACTLY what you can do. That is EXACTLY how a system works (!)
You do not like it ? Change it, then.

#2
So-called "Patriot Act" is your dilema ?
Who are you going to blame ?
You have given all the power to your representative, and he/she voted for that Act. Even if he/she did not vote, but majority of representatives DID (!)
Who are you going to blame ? Yourself or your representatives ?

#3
What Fascism or "torture" ? Are you OK ?
This is RALITY (!) This is EXACTLY how the system works, you have been living under for some years. You did not know, how "Police" or "Intelligence" collects information ?
Man, you need some extra time in your life, and I hope that "Whoever or Whatever" is in power, will show its mercy on you.
You need that time to start all over your life, and Re-educate yourself, again.
Idealism is what we should teach our children, them to grow up being capable of distinguishing "good" from "bad".
But when children have become mature persons, they need to face reality, and leave "fairy tales" under a pillow.

[gr8fuldaniel]

If you believe Bush and his official lie:

"The Terrorists hate us for our freedom"

Then the terrorists won the war on terrorism, because The Patriot Act takes away what makes America GREAT. Freedom.

Edit to add:
They hate us because we murder them with bombs and steal from them. We arm their Dictators and then bomb their people and then we occupy their country. Our death squads are invaders, and they only want us to leave their sacred land. We train terrorists torturers and dictators at School of the Americas. We attack innocent villagers at their weddings. People who never attacked us.

[Compugasm]

Terrorist murder innocent children with bombs and steal from us. They arm Dictators and then bomb their people and then occupy their country. Their death squads are oppressors, and we want them to leave their sacred land. They train terrorists torturers and dictators at training camps. They kidnap innocent children at their own schools.

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, If you believe Bush and his official lie:  Then the terrorists won the war on terrorism, because The Patriot Act takes away what makes America GREAT. Freedom. Edit to add: They hate us because we murder them with bombs and steal from them. We arm their Dictators and then bomb their people and then we occupy their country. Our death squads are invaders, and they only want us to leave their sacred land. We train terrorists torturers and dictators at School of the Americas. We attack innocent villagers at their weddings. People who never attacked us.

#1
Whether I believe and what it may be, that is MY and MY business, only.
Whether Bush lies or tells the truth, that is Bush's business, not mine. Since Bush does not belong to my family, I care less for what he says.

Why do you blame Bush for "Patriot Act" ? and not your representative, instead ?
Do you think that if there is Kerry (or whoever) in power, then there is no "Patriot Act" ? If "yes", then you are pretty naive.
In chase for the information on suspected terrorists, a government will use all the power along with all the rights and privileges to reach its goal. There go civil rights.

As to your information :
Even single stroke on a keyboard, is being logged by an ISP. In case a government wants that "log file", an ISP is OBLIGATED to hand over all the information regarding a particular person or that person's activity.

Why do not you fight with your ISP to stop such precedure ? You are talking about "Freedom" ? Freedom of what ? of who ?
Wake up. The reality is very harsh sometimes, but it is not going to be replaced by our dreams.

#2
Who are "They" ? What is that text ?
To me, that sounds like a sort of "poetry" on U.S. foreign policy, made while relaxing at a local pub. Good material for pre-schools. The world of politics does not recognize word "mercy". Politics is all about : money.
Do you want to change it ? Talk to your elected representative, instead.

My bet ? He/She says blah, blah, blah and will keep doing what he/she wants to, which means what brings him/her some profits.
That what politics is all about : money, positions, personal gains, ect.
Do you want to change it as well ?
Go ahead, and replace a coin for mind, as the highest value for Mankind.
That is exactly Us - People who have established a coin as the "highest" above all "value", since Mankind had developed the matter called : property.
You do not like it ?
Sorry man, but it was not my idea.

[Rainbow]

Double post.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Rainbow, #1 Whether I believe and what it may be, that is MY and MY business, only.

Then why come here and voice your opinion if you are so private?

Whether Bush lies or tells the truth, that is Bush's business, not mine. Since Bush does not belong to my family, I care less for what he says.

Interesting, you dont care about the character of a man who has THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH, and opts for death, daily.

Why do you blame Bush for "Patriot Act" ? and not your representative, instead ?

It was the Bush administration who pushed it through with his with or against us policy, that made enemy combatants out of anyone who opposed his designs for conquering and empire.

Do you think that if there is Kerry (or whoever) in power, then there is no "Patriot Act" ? If "yes", then you are pretty naive.

I am not sure about Kerry, but I know for a fact that Bush is a profiteering murderer.

In chase for the information on suspected terrorists, a government will use all the power along with all the rights and privileges to reach its goal. There go civil rights.

If they wanted to find the terrorists, they should go first to the CIA who trained them. Then grill the Saudis and Bin Ladens that Bush gave a free ticket out of town to.

As to your information : Even single stroke on a keyboard, is being logged by an ISP. In case a government wants that "log file", an ISP is OBLIGATED to hand over all the information regarding a particular person or that person's activity. Why do not you fight with your ISP to stop such precedure ? You are talking about "Freedom" ? Freedom of what ? of who ? Wake up. The reality is very harsh sometimes, but it is not going to be replaced by our dreams.

I am just one man trying to speak my truth quietly and clearly. I have no real power over corrupt government, I can only hope to wake a few people up from their trance

#2 Who are "They" ? What is that text ? To me, that sounds like a sort of "poetry" on U.S. foreign policy, made while relaxing at a local pub. Good material for pre-schools. The world of politics does not recognize word "mercy". Politics is all about : money. Do you want to change it ? Talk to your elected representative, instead.

#2 Deals with how in a police state it is no longer the job description "To protect and to serve" for the cops. Now it is to terrorize , spy on, and to treat like an enemy, everyone is suspect. Horrible, hateful,Tyranny.
In a police state you own nothing, and you are in fact "property of the state".

[gr8fuldaniel]

Somebody started a topic on those red light cams last week. I cant find it but this article will fit nicely in this thread:

National Center for Policy Analysis NCPA Red-Light Cameras Violate Our Privacy And Can Be Used To Entrap The Innocent STERLING, VA -- Do we want to submit to constant monitoring by the government -- or do we value our right to some degree of privacy in public spaces more than catching scofflaws? This is what the use of cameras and automated radar traps to deal with the problem of red light running and "speeding" ultimately comes down to. To get a bad case of the creepies, simply drive a few miles over the posted speed limit on Northern Virginia's scenic George Washington Parkway. A week or so later, a present will arrive for you in the mail: a machine-generated ticket for speeding, issued courtesy of photo radar traps set up by the National Park Service, a federal agency which has jurisdiction over the parkway. The photo radar was set up last year, very quietly, as part of a "demonstration project" run jointly by the NPS and Lockheed-Martin, a private defense contractor which supplies the gear and processes the film -- in return for a percentage of the fees generated by the fleecing of hapless motorists. Lockheed Martin also provides the cameras already in widespread use at intersections around the country to catch "red light runners." The logical next step is the widespread adoption of automated speed enforcement. If not strangled in its crib, the use of technology to constantly monitor us will develop to the point where we are always under the watchful eye of Big Brother. This isn't about "safety" -- anymore than beating a suspect with rubber hoses to extract a confession is about "reducing violent crime rates." The argument that "only scofflaws" need be concerned about the unblinking eye of watchful government observing us at every street corner -- teamed, let's remember, in a for-profit endeavor with a private company -- is dangerous precisely because it implicitly confers carte blanche authority upon government to look us over anytime, for any reason. The same equipment that can be used to catch red light runners can also easily be used to keep track of your movements, identify and catalog who you happen to be traveling with, and so on. This, by the way, is precisely what camera technology is being used for in Great Britain. It's not much farther to a society in which "Your papers, please!" becomes as accepted as it was in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany. Free governments do not randomly monitor the doings of the citizenry. Unfree countries don't have Fourth Amendment protections -- or the notion of presumptive innocence under the law. We do -- but some want us to chuck all that in return for their chimera of "safety." It is, however, hard to see how a less free society can be "safer" in any meaningful sense. With photo radar and red light cameras, there is no due process, no right to confront your accuser -- a ticket is simply mailed to you via an automated process. Catching "speeders" and "red light runners" is the straw man set up by advocates of this kind of over-the-top use of government power. But just as we could "catch more criminals" by randomly frisking people -- or searching homes without warrants -- the benefit is not worth the cost. Advocates of photo radar/camera enforcement are either naive or don't care about the threat posed by these technologies to our civil liberties. Keeping the forces of government in check and off our backs is every bit as important -- ultimately more so -- than keeping tabs on "speeders" and red-light runners. Eric Peters is a nationally syndicated automotive columnist whose works has appeared in The Wall Street Journal, Consumer Digest magazine and other leading publications. Readers may write him at 11 Wicker Court, Sterling, Va. 20164.

So where is the public debate on this? When was the vote? They are taking some brash liberties to lull us gently into an Orwellian security.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, Somebody started a topic on those red light cams last week. I cant find it but this article will fit nicely in this thread:

It was me, and it was this thread (a few pages back). Thanks for remembering it. I thought it went totally unnoticed. Your article was better than mine in the "police state" idea. Mine mentioned that they're being installed and what the fines for running a redlight are.

My roommate and I were just talking about this. He mentioned that if I borrow his car, and run a redlight, he's the one who gets the ticket and points on a license. So, while i could give him the money for the ticket, the whole license point things a bit harder to sort out.

[PatrickHenry]

From the Bush Administration's mouthpiece, the Washington Times. (Not my favorite newspaper, but a source for news that will never be slanted against Bush, if that is possible)
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040...3402-7311r.htm

[SIZE=2]Undermining free speech[/SIZE] By Nat Hentoff I remember the FBI of J. Edgar Hoover, who urgently believed that Americans actively protesting against government policies, including those of the FBI, required surveillance and chilling visitations by its agents to counsel them that certain speech resulted in unpleasant consequences for them. Current intimidation of protesters by Robert Mueller's FBI brings back my memories of the 1950s and 1960s... <snip> These days, however, FBI agents before last month's Democratic convention and this week's Republican convention have — with particular zeal, as described in an Aug. 19 editorial by the Denver Post — "gone about their mission aggressively, with little regard for basic rights and without evidence that the people they are trying to dissuade are actually intending any criminal activity."

The FBI is one of the national police agencies. Any policy the FBI pursues impacts nationally. The story above tells how intrusive questioning of people who may dissent is used not for security purposes, but to silence them.

Anybody else have a problem with the FBI throwing a scare into those who would be disposed to dissent?

[Rainbow]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, Then why come here and voice your opinion if you are so private? Interesting, you dont care about the character of a man who has THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH, and opts for death, daily. It was the Bush administration who pushed it through with his with or against us policy, that made enemy combatants out of anyone who opposed his designs for conquering and empire. I am not sure about Kerry, but I know for a fact that Bush is a profiteering murderer. If they wanted to find the terrorists, they should go first to the CIA who trained them. Then grill the Saudis and Bin Ladens that Bush gave a free ticket out of town to. I am just one man trying to speak my truth quietly and clearly. I have no real power over corrupt government, I can only hope to wake a few people up from their trance Deals with how in a police state it is no longer the job description "To protect and to serve" for the cops. Now it is to terrorize , spy on, and to treat like an enemy, everyone is suspect. Horrible, hateful,Tyranny. In a police state you own nothing, and you are in fact "property of the state".

Try to memorize :
==================
- what I do in my life, that is NONE of anybody business but MINE.

Are you trying to get into my personal life ?
That is NONE of your business to even ask what I come here for. You have an impudance even to post such text ? What is that ? A demand or request on my personal matters ?
I choose my friends and colleagues, and it is not done otherwise.
Sorry, man, but you are neither my family member, nor belong to people I have choosen as my friends or colleagues, me to explain what I do in my life.

Since "Volcanvo" Forum is PUBLIC, then it is available and accessable to all the Internet users.

#1
Good material for a kindergarden audience.
#2
You have no clue on politics.
#3
Do you think that Kerry or whoever in power will change that slogan "To Protect and To Serve" ? Will it change "Police" or its tasks ?
Do not be naive. It will never happen.
You like slogans ? Enjoy it.

If it is written that "you are stupid" , will you believe in it ?
If it is written that "you are wise" , will you believe in it ?
What it is written and what it is a reality, there are 2 different matters.

So, if U.S. is "Police State" then I own nothing ? How did you come up with that idea ?
Even in communist Russsia or under Russia' political influence, people had their private properties (!) - in case you did not know that.

As of now, exchanging any view or opinion with you seems to be a waste time.
You just simply submit links to others, and copy their views.
Can you afford your own thought ?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Compugasm+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Compugasm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It was me, and it was this thread (a few pages back). Thanks for remembering it. I thought it went totally unnoticed. Your article was better than mine in the "police state" idea. Mine mentioned that they're being installed and what the fines for running a redlight are. [/b]

I Noticed, I lived in Escondido for the last 15 years. I sent the article to several friends there, 2 people responded favorably to the cams. Saying that was a dangerous intersection. That whole town is dangerous traffic-wise. Over-population.

I have seen one of these notices they send to offenders (In San Diego, in fact), they snap a pic from 2 angles and you can dispute it. The pics were grainy, and I dont know if they send a higher resolution, close-up pic to the judge or not. They take a close-up shot of your license plate. You can foil them on this by buying an after market tinted license plate "protector" shield. This was a legal accessory a few years ago, not sure about now.

This is the creepy part using Defense Contractors against citizens:

Originally posted by Article,@ NCPA The photo radar was set up last year, very quietly, as part of a "demonstration project" run jointly by the NPS and Lockheed-Martin, a private defense contractor which supplies the gear and processes the film -- in return for a percentage of the fees generated by the fleecing of hapless motorists. Lockheed Martin also provides the cameras already in widespread use at intersections around the country to catch "red light runners."

<!--QuoteBegin-Patrick
The FBI is one of the national police agencies. Any policy the FBI pursues impacts nationally. The story above tells how intrusive questioning of people who may dissent is used not for security purposes, but to silence them.

Anybody else have a problem with the FBI throwing a scare into those who would be disposed to dissent? [/quote]I do. They are eliminating opposition to authoritarian rule. Anyone who is against Bush (by default) is against empire and they will single them out for harrassment and gestapo-esque treatment. Dangerous times. Just remember:
Dissent is Patriotic.
They cant just waltz in here and take our country, like nobody was looking.

[gr8fuldaniel]

QUOTE (Rainbow,)

#1 Whether I believe and what it may be, that is MY and MY business, only.

I guess we are through debating then, adios. :rolleyes:

[PatrickHenry]

Here's a little police action from the environmental front: If you are a police agency dealing with nonviolent sit down strikers, why not use oleoresin capsicum directly on their eye tissue? It's great to hear the screams...
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/090704A.shtml

Tuesday 07 September 2004 This week, in San Francisco, a group of young forest activists will finally get their day in court. In 1997 they were subjected to torture at the hands of police and Pacific Lumber goons. The weapon of torture was the chemical Oleoresin Capsicum, known as pepper spray, swabbed into their eyes with a Q-tip. In three separate incidents that fall, activists as young as 16 were assaulted as they were chained and helpless. Here is what happened in the words of activist Spring Lundberg: "Humboldt County Sheriff deputies grabbed me by the head and dragged a Q-tip drenched in pepper spray across my eyes. I was completely nonviolent that day, rooted to the floor of Pacific Lumber's lobby like one of the ancient redwoods we defend. PL employees, mingling with law enforcement, told us that we 'had an education coming.' In the lobby of company headquarters in a company town in northern California, they covered the windows with butcher paper so no one could see what they did to us. But the world saw into that room when police videotape of the incident and two others aired on television internationally." Amnesty International characterized the incidents as "tantamount to torture." The activists sued Humboldt County and the City of Eureka for use of excessive force and the first trial ended in 1998 with a hung jury. The judge attempted to dismiss the case, but appeals court decisions and finally the US Supreme Court have sent the trial back to federal court in San Francisco. The legal team that won the unprecedented 2002 victory in the civil rights case Judi Bari vs. FBI will argue the case. Attorney J. Tony Serra said, "I'm joining this case in smoldering anger because applying the noxious pepper spray was torture. This case will be vigorously prosecuted and it will be a political trial, and I'm proud of it." The case has national implications. Police use of pepper spray has escalated since the early 1990's. Originally introduced for use in subduing violent, out of control detainees, police and prison guards are increasingly using it as pure punishment for prisoners whose race, social class or political beliefs they don't like. Manufacturers say it can be safely used as a spray from fifteen feet away, but cops are spraying people directly in the face with it, soaking their clothes in it and dripping it into their eyes. Experts say it causes pain "like bobbing for fries in a vat of hot oil." As many as 35 people have died in California after being pepper-sprayed, according to the ACLU. Though pepper spray alone has not been known to kill, in combination with other health conditions it can be deadly. For instance, some pepper-sprayed victims with asthma or bronchitis have died from asphyxiation. Plaintiffs had attempted to settle the case with Humboldt County, asking only that law enforcement change their policy of using chemical agents on non-violent protesters, but the county refused to settle. One has to ask why an impoverished, rural, northern California county would be willing to go to the mat on this issue and spend potentially millions of dollars in legal fees. I asked Alicia Littletree, a member of the plaintiff's legal team this question. Her short answer was: "It's law enforcement closing ranks. They always do this in cases of excessive force." But there is also the reality of the Redwood Empire. Humboldt County and its law enforcement apparatus have traditionally been at the service of Big Timber. Littletree outlined events during the summer of 1997 that led to the escalation of violence against the protesters: "The Headwaters deal was about to be finalized and Hurwitz didn't need the protesters to drive up the price anymore. The giant rally at Carlotta where 3,000 people were arrested really angered the sheriffs." The Headwaters deal paid a half billion taxpayer dollars to Charles Hurwitz of Pacific Lumber Company in exchange for about 7,500 acres of redwood forest. PL also got a license to log the rest of their holdings with impunity. Environmentalists were unhappy with the deal. Littletree also described an incident that took place just a month before the pepper spray assaults that may be connected in some sick way. Charles Hurwitz was at Pacific Lumber headquarters (normally the Texas financier lurks around his Maxxam headquarters in Houston) for discussions about the Headwaters deal. Emerging from a luncheon meeting, he was greeted by a pie thrower who made contact. Sheriff Lewis, mastermind of the pepper spray strategy, was standing right next to him when it happened. And so we can make sense of the PL employee's statement to activists locked down in their office a month later that the young people "had an education coming." Banana cream in the eyes would be repaid by fire in the eyes.

[gr8fuldaniel]

OMG, these guys are evil! I didnt comment on this at 1st because I was just shocked, speechless.
From Patrick's link:

As many as 35 people have died in California after being pepper-sprayed, according to the ACLU. Though pepper spray alone has not been known to kill, in combination with other health conditions it can be deadly. For instance, some pepper-sprayed victims with asthma or bronchitis have died from asphyxiation.

These are the hardened criminals that required barbaric measures to subdue


Why isnt this on the front page?

[PatrickHenry]

Nothing any self-respecting police state wouldn't do: torturing its victims in front of news cameras as an example.

"See, here's what police will do if you protest."

This stuff will lead to revolution...

[Compugasm]

Earlier I posted an article about traffic cameras. One mistake and it costs you more than $300, and points on your license. You're being watched by the govt through registered, and documented duty too comply with the law. Yet, everyday more than 4000 people strole across the border. No ID, no security check, no/fake Social Security number. Illegal drivers = no tickets. Think about that.