voting and citizenship

[Wolfer]

I realize that neither major party offers us any real choice in the voting booth. One is the echo of the other and both are controlled by the powers that be in the the lurking shadows.
Wining and dining, bribes, threats, intimidation, dumbed down schools, and the controlled media have technically transformed politicians into puppets, overthrown our republic, and given us an international corporate dictatorship that manages to dupe public awareness much the same way as inflation has managed to dupe our dollars The illusion of normalcy holds as firm as the oasis in the desert, at least until its too late.
I don't know exactly how we should or could even begin to attack this dilemma; but perhaps a good place to start is the following.
1. Only American citizens should be allowed to vote in any state.
2. Proficiency in the English language should be a requirement for voting rights.
3. Only tax payers should have the right to vote, so the leaches of society can't sell their vote to politicians who are all too willing to confiscate the hard earned money of working people and redistribute it among the parasites.
4. Voters should be required to pass a test on the basic, fundamental principles of The United States Constitution. How can we elect people to protect our constitutionally guaranteed rights, and uphold the law of our land if we can't identify our rights or detect violations of constitutional principles.

[Red_Shadow]

I'd be surprised if someone without citizenship would be able to vote anyway.

Why should they need to speak English? The real language of America is mostly Spanish anyway, so as long as they can figure out the paper, why should their language be your problem?

If you remove the power from those who cannot pay tax or those who do not necessarily 'understand' the constitution as the government want them to. Doing that would open up to elimination of all true opposition (Like the Socialists for example, i trust they wouldn't interpret the constitution as a defense of say, 'free' market), by allowing the Government to decide who 'got it right'.

[Gods_Mercenary]

The real language of America is mostly Spanish anyway,

What?

[Red_Shadow]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary What?

America. I'm not calling the US 'America'. America refers to two whole continents.

[Gods_Mercenary]

But the vast majority that do speak spanish don't vote in U.S. elsctions anyway, so why should they be catered to?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary But the vast majority that do speak spanish don't vote in U.S. elsctions anyway, so why should they be catered to?

But hey!! Why should white people who speak English be catered to? There are plenty of so-called "Constitutionalists" here. Is there anything in the US Constitution (and case law thereunder) that legitimizes catering to any language or voting demographic?

Grandpa h.

[ironeagle]

I don't agree with the idea a person must agree to the constitution, in fact the constitution was made to be amended so therefore a person would be justified in not agreeing with it in whole, or in part, and wanting it to be amended. I do understand that you want people who really understand what America is supposed to be, to be the ones voting. I agree but one American concept you are missing is that even the smallest of groups and individuals have the right to disagree with their government and their own laws, there is nothing more American , I think , than to be allowed to disagree with your own country. I do fully support our constitution and I agree only citizens should have the right to vote. I don't care if they can speak English but I do hope more people will at least take the time to understand politics and research each candidate before voting. The number one language in America (US) which is what the author meant, is English, not Spanish. I do think that the ballots should only be printed in English though, it is up to the non English speaking to get a translator or learn our language.

[Dan_77]

This entire thread is a non-issue.

Quote by: Wolfer I don't know exactly how we should or could even begin to attack this dilemma; but perhaps a good place to start is the following. 1. Only American citizens should be allowed to vote in any state.

Only American citizens are allowed to vote now.

2. Proficiency in the English language should be a requirement for voting rights.

Do you have evidence that people who are not proficient in the English language are voting in great numbers? I don't think it's the case.

3. Only tax payers should have the right to vote, so the leaches of society can't sell their vote to politicians who are all too willing to confiscate the hard earned money of working people and redistribute it among the parasites.

Can you name any American citizen who does not pay taxes in a given year? I bet you can't.

4. Voters should be required to pass a test on the basic, fundamental principles of The United States Constitution. How can we elect people to protect our constitutionally guaranteed rights, and uphold the law of our land if we can't identify our rights or detect violations of constitutional principles.

First we need to agree on what those principles are. The immense volume of federal case law should make it obvious that not even learned scholars can "identify our rights".

[Wolfer]

Quote by: ironeagle I don't agree with the idea a person must agree to the constitution, in fact the constitution was made to be amended so therefore a person would be justified in not agreeing with it in whole, or in part, and wanting it to be amended. I do understand that you want people who really understand what America is supposed to be, to be the ones voting. I agree but one American concept you are missing is that even the smallest of groups and individuals have the right to disagree with their government and their own laws, there is nothing more American , I think , than to be allowed to disagree with your own country. I do fully support our constitution and I agree only citizens should have the right to vote. I don't care if they can speak English but I do hope more people will at least take the time to understand politics and research each candidate before voting. The number one language in America (US) which is what the author meant, is English, not Spanish. I do think that the ballots should only be printed in English though, it is up to the non English speaking to get a translator or learn our language.

No one is saying that one must agree with the constitution. On the contrary,I am saying that one must at least understand what it says, and respect it as the law of the land. One can not demand rights that he is unaware of, or recognize government illegality or abuse of power if he does not know the constitutional limits on the power of the federal government.
.The constitution itself provides a mechanism to change itself. It is called an amendment. When an amendment is approved legally it also becomes part of the law, but not before
To me it seems that far too many politicians feel that political expediency is more important than the constitutional guarantees political equality, natural rights and the individual sovereignty of man.
The US constitution is an extraordinarily valuable documents, the violation of which will lead us down the slippery slope of fascist/socialist?global totalitarianism.

[Wolfer]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary But the vast majority that do speak spanish don't vote in U.S. elsctions anyway, so why should they be catered to?

No one should be catered too; but English is the national language. If you come to this country from elsewhere you should respect our language and our national identity. One who is not willing to do so should go back where he came from. All of our European ancestors who immigrated to the US proudly became American and, although contributing to and enriching certain aspects of American culture, they assimilated, learned the language and history and became Americans. For all the ethnic differences, they still took pride in the opportunity they had to partake of the land of the American Founding fathers. Either join the "vine" or drop the "grapes".

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: grandpa But hey!! Why should white people who speak English be catered to? There are plenty of so-called "Constitutionalists" here. Is there anything in the US Constitution (and case law thereunder) that legitimizes catering to any language or voting demographic? Grandpa h.

It's not about that at all, it's about living in a country where the vast majority of information on candidates backgrounds, stances, and whatnot are communicated in english, (granted, large chunks of the info is crap) If someone can't check a box or the equivalent without directions in their native tongue, they probably shouldn't be voting anyway.

[Dan_77]

Quote by: Wolfer No one should be catered too; but English is the national language.

Says who? Can you show me a law or Constitutional clause that says this?

If you come to this country from elsewhere you should respect our language and our national identity. One who is not willing to do so should go back where he came from. All of our European ancestors who immigrated to the US proudly became American and, although contributing to and enriching certain aspects of American culture, they assimilated, learned the language and history and became Americans. For all the ethnic differences, they still took pride in the opportunity they had to partake of the land of the American Founding fathers. Either join the "vine" or drop the "grapes".

Do you have any evidence to suggest that current immigrants are not doing this?

Assimilation is generational. The children of today's Latin immigrants are just as Americanized as the children of European immigrants of 100 years ago. This trend has not changed throughout our entire history. Adult immigrants retain most of their culture and language. Their children are a blend of their old country with the United States. The grandchildren and great grandchildren of immigrants are progressively more "Americanized".

The arguments of anti-immigration hysterics have not changed in 200 years. Looking at writings throughout American history reveals that those who are already here have consistently complained about immigrants not learning the language or culture, bringing crime and disease with them, and taking jobs that should be given to "Americans".

It would be humorous if it wasn't so ignorant.

[??!]

Quote by: Wolfer If you come to this country from elsewhere you should respect our language and our national identity. One who is not willing to do so should go back where he came from.

Why should they respect our language? I see no point.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary It's not about that at all, it's about living in a country where the vast majority of information on candidates backgrounds, stances, and whatnot are communicated in english, (granted, large chunks of the info is crap) If someone can't check a box or the equivalent without directions in their native tongue, they probably shouldn't be voting anyway.

But that means catering to people who speak English. If enough people start speaking other languages (which appears to be the case), why feel threatened? If it's that much of a problem for you, why not try learning their languages, or perhaps moving? The point is, why can't people just be left alone? I've wondered this nearly all my life.

As for voting, I hardly see why that should be of importance to begin with. Nobody should be "running the country" to begin with. We've been saddled with one elitist and moronic aristrocrat after another. It's time to break free of that spell.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: ??! Why should they respect our language? I see no point.

Neither do I see a point, except for imposing attitudes of cultural and linguistic supremacy; that's what this is really all about. Being statists, they are not eager to accept variation. You either act like a white male with essentially Judeo-Christian values (including the good ol' puritan work ethic) or you don't belong here. In other words, it's not a defensible position, which is why you'll never get a solid explanation.

Grandpa h.

[Wolfer]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary But the vast majority that do speak spanish don't vote in U.S. elsctions anyway, so why should they be catered to?

That is neither here nor there. It is a matter of principle

[Wolfer]

Quote by: tivodan1116 This entire thread is a non-issue. Only American citizens are allowed to vote now. Do you have evidence that people who are not proficient in the English language are voting in great numbers? I don't think it's the case. Can you name any American citizen who does not pay taxes in a given year? I bet you can't. First we need to agree on what those principles are. The immense volume of federal case law should make it obvious that not even learned scholars can "identify our rights".

O yes I can

[Dan_77]

Quote by: Wolfer O yes I can

Ok.. so go ahead. Prove the points I said you cannot prove in my post.

1) That meaningful numbers of non-english speakers are voting.

2) That there are American adults who have not paid taxes in a given year.

3) That we can all agree on what "our rights" are.

[Jack]

Wolfer, one liners are not constructive nor do they advance the thread. Everyone, let's make sure we're staying on topic.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[ironeagle]

Quote by: Wolfer No one is saying that one must agree with the constitution. On the contrary,I am saying that one must at least understand what it says, and respect it as the law of the land. One can not demand rights that he is unaware of, or recognize government illegality or abuse of power if he does not know the constitutional limits on the power of the federal government. .The constitution itself provides a mechanism to change itself. It is called an amendment. When an amendment is approved legally it also becomes part of the law, but not before To me it seems that far too many politicians feel that political expediency is more important than the constitutional guarantees political equality, natural rights and the individual sovereignty of man. The US constitution is an extraordinarily valuable documents, the violation of which will lead us down the slippery slope of fascist/socialist?global totalitarianism.

I agree with you mostly, I wish the constitution was a required core topic in American schools, I do think that people should be allowed within reason to interpret it's meaning, not to the point of denying what it actually says, but to understand it's meaning. I have seen what public schools have done to the constitution before, they twist the words, or excluded or changed them from the originals, which I think is illegal, but no one ever corrects these texts. We need proper copies of the texts taught in schools. I believe we do need to teach children their constitutional rights, just as we would teach them our religion, and moral beliefs. Citizens without understanding of their constitution, past and rights are blind to truth, and shouldn't vote. Yet they still maintain the right by the constitution to vote regardless of that lack of understanding. I am sure that there is no national/official language in the U.S.