Rightwing American Zionists:

[GHook93]

Quote by: Dagda Can you not understand why? I am not saying everything the arabs do is golden, far from it,

I can see why they might not like the country, but I can't see why they would stay if they hate the country so much! If they hate the country then they could easily go across the border.

There have been surveys (I posted them a while back) that Arab Israelis are very fearful of their lands getting transfered to any future Palestinian State. They prefer to remain part of Israel.

I am mearly trying to counter a misguidence in our ideas that the Israeli Jews somehow have been the victims of unprovoked atacks.

Get it straight we are talking about Israeli Arabs. They for the most part have not committed terrorist acts.

The muslims in the area feel as if( with much to justifiy the claim) they are being persicuted in there own country.

As the Jews thought before the Romans came!

The Palistinians were living there quite happily untill the Jews where dumped there by the guilty Western powers at the end of WW2.

Do some history checks. No has ever really lived peacefully in the Holy Lands. Palestine was much a barrier desert area before the Jews started to come back to Palestine. In fact many of the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians immigrated to Palestine during the time after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and during the British White Paper Mandates. Jews weren't very restricted in immigration in this period, but the Arab immigration wasn't restricted at all!



Both peoples have a valid claim to the land. Until eachother side recognizes the other's claim nothing will happen.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 I can see why they might not like the country, but I can't see why they would stay if they hate the country so much! If they hate the country then they could easily go across the border.

Why do you assume that? Furthermore, the assumption is rather grotesque. You're completely failing to understand WHY they would want to flee.

Grandpa h.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike The same practice used in many other states. Right of return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Are you claim that all those state base themselves on bigotry or racism. I personally see the right of return as affirmative action because Jews on the most prosecuted minority in the world. That's one of the main reasons that Israel was created to be safe haven to Jews around the world

Are you saying that the practice is non-discrimionatory?

[Dagda]

Why is that. If they claim to be going to WB they could have easily decided to commit a terrorist attack in Israel. Terrorist don't have a label on their forehead. No terrorism mean no more checkpoints and free movement.

It is not the fault of the normal people for the terrorism of a few. In fact, the military ocupation further enphisises the propoganda of the extremists and helps them recruit. Perhaps if the Israel government lessened a military presence on Palistinian land this would be a step toward better relations.

Do some history checks. No has ever really lived peacefully in the Holy Lands.

If you will read my comment carefully, I said happily not peacefully. Anyway, the creation of Israel only inflamed the issue.

As the Jews thought before the Romans came!

One attrocity does not make another alright. Anyway, last time I checked, no Roman soldier was muslim and the Romans only finnished of a process that had been begun 300 years previously with Alexander the Great of Macedonia.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Dagda It is not the fault of the normal people for the terrorism of a few. In fact, the military ocupation further enphisises the propoganda of the extremists and helps them recruit. Perhaps if the Israel government lessened a military presence on Palistinian land this would be a step toward better relations.

That is naive at best. What happen with the disengagment of Gaza? The militants used it as a base for daily missile attacks against Israel. Israel needs to remain proactive until there is a final peace agreement and independent Palestinian State.

Israel and Palestinian situation isn't the other border dispute. Iraq and Iran have border dispute issues. Syria still considers Lebanon part of it. Iraq considers Kuwait part of it. The Kurds consider parts of Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey part of Kurdistan. Pakistan and India dispute Kashmir. Egypt and Libya dispute their border. And I am sure there are more I am not familiar with.

If you will read my comment carefully, I said happily not peacefully. Anyway, the creation of Israel only inflamed the issue.

One in the same!

One attrocity does not make another alright. Anyway, last time I checked, no Roman soldier was muslim

True, none were Arabs either, but the Romans were the ones that changed the name from Israel and Judea to Palestine and the Arabs took over Palestine for te Romans/Byzantines and decided to call themselves Palestinians 500 years after the name change.

and the Romans only finnished of a process that had been begun 300 years previously with Alexander the Great of Macedonia.

Again get a history lesson. The Maccabes expelled the Greeks and the Israel entered the Jewish Golden Era for roughly 100 years. The Romans then took over. Roman rule at first wasn't that bad, but it soon turned worst. During the Roman era Jews made up 10% of the Roman empire population. The Jews then made 2 huge errors. The reason the Jews were scattered across the world and the reason why so few Jews were around even before the Holocaust. The 2 Jewish revolts. If they would have weathered the storm may they could have held out for the fall of Roman and then for the fall of the Byzantine Empire.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Are you saying that the practice is non-discrimionatory?

Arabs and Muslims make up 25% of the country. Arabs are in MKs. Arabs are businessmen. Arabs are town Mayors. Arabs receive social services. There is even an Arab Supreme Court justice.

See the rest of the Middle East and North Africa. Morroco to Pakistan countries are made of nearly all Muslims. Saudi Arabia, Iran Iraq, Yeman, Oman, Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Tunsia, Syria, Kuwait, Algeria, Morroco, Palestine etc. are all made of 90%+ Muslims. Places like Iran, SA, Libya and Yemen are made up of nearly 100% Muslims. Besides Lebanon (who might be in a civil war right now and have seen great Christian flight since the rise of Hezbollah) the only place you see a non-Muslim in the government is ironically Iran - 1 sole Jewish Parlinment member.

[shrike]

Quote by: milton Are you saying that the practice is non-discrimionatory?

No its not. Its just. Its the same if you not allow someone to your private property its doesn't mean you discriminatory toward them.
I didn't seem anyone to condemn Irish for the same practice but it's ok to condemn Israel?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shrike No its not. Its just. Its the same if you not allow someone to your private property its doesn't mean you discriminatory toward them.

Really? That seems blatantly discriminatory from here.

Quote by: shrike I didn't seem anyone to condemn Irish for the same practice but it's ok to condemn Israel?

Probably because nobody was aware of that fact, or it had not come up in conversation.


Still, I don't see a direct parallel in the comparison of being of Irish decent to get into Ireland, and having a certain religion to gain entrance to Isreal. Seems like comparing apples, and oranges.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Still, I don't see a direct parallel in the comparison of being of Irish decent to get into Ireland, and having a certain religion to gain entrance to Isreal. Seems like comparing apples, and oranges.

Well Judaism is unique in the fact that its treated as a race and has been targeted for extermination many times throughout history. Throughout history the Jews, practicing, non-practicing or only having a parent being Jewish were still targeted for persecution and extermination. Therefore it can be directly compared to the Irish as a nationality!

[shrike]

Quote by: milton Really? That seems blatantly discriminatory from here.

So you say you should allow anyone to your private property?

Probably because nobody was aware of that fact, or it had not come up in conversation.

And I must ask why?Why no one care about an Ireland and care only about Israel?

Still, I don't see a direct parallel in the comparison of being of Irish decent to get into Ireland, and having a certain religion to gain entrance to Isreal. Seems like comparing apples, and oranges.

No its not its exactly the same you receive citizenship just because of something that you was born and in Jewish case you very heavily prosecuted for it. You don't have to believe in god to be allowed into Israel.

[Dagda]

Again get a history lesson. The Maccabes expelled the Greeks and the Israel entered the Jewish Golden Era for roughly 100 years. The Romans then took over.

This may be so, but it does not take away the fact that it was Alexander who started the process of. By the time of the Roman conquest the Jews where quite widley spread (perhaps not as widley as they would become) which was-directly or indirectly-cuased by the Greeks. It was not a purley Roman notion and the Romans certianly did not start the exodus of the Jews.

One in the same!

I'm being pedantic here but many people down the ages have been perfectly happy fighting in a war-even gloryfid it. More specificly, mearly because there is conflict in the area does not mean some happiness can not be achived.
In the words of the great Mahatma Gandi(please excuse the dogey spelling) 'we may have problems but at least they would be our problems'

That is naive at best.

Of course its naive but then so is thinking an armed presense will solve anything. 'An eye for an eye and the whole worlds blind'- Gandi again

[Dagda]

No its not its exactly the same you receive citizenship just because of something that you was born and in Jewish case you very heavily prosecuted for it. You don't have to believe in god to be allowed into Israel.]

In the Irish case percicution is part of the territory as well. Let us not forgett it has not been that long since the No Irish Need Apply sings dropped from windows.
Also, as I've said before, one act in one country does not make a similar act in another OK.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Dagda This may be so, but it does not take away the fact that it was Alexander who started the process of. By the time of the Roman conquest the Jews where quite widley spread (perhaps not as widley as they would become) which was-directly or indirectly-cuased by the Greeks. It was not a purley Roman notion and the Romans certianly did not start the exodus of the Jews.

After the Persians help the Jews regain Israel from the Babloyians, they returned to Israel. The Greek conquest of Israel was relatively a peaceful. The Jews didn't fight back, because the Greek were going to take on the super-power of the region - the Persians. During the Roman conquest the Jews spread throughout the Roman Empire, that is when it started.

I'm being pedantic here but many people down the ages have been perfectly happy fighting in a war-even gloryfid it. More specificly, mearly because there is conflict in the area does not mean some happiness can not be achived.

There is an old saying, "War is only glorified by the ones that didn't fight it! The historian glorify war, not the men, women and children who die during its course."

[shrike]

Quote by: dadga Also, as I've said before, one act in one country does not make a similar act in another OK.

I don't see anything wrong with this practice.

[Derek Wolff]

The Palistinians were living there quite happily untill the Jews where dumped there by the guilty Western powers at the end of WW2.

And if you had a few million jews on your hand, the majority horridly abused, would you leave them in the country that had extreme hatred for them, that caused the abuse. The Palistinians can still live quite happily if the decided "hey, why don't we just live in Israel instead of bombing it and demanding the palistinian state?"

[xyzer]

I don't excuse Israels treatment of the Palestinians that have come ever increasingly intertwined with Israel, but I can rationalize it. The Partitition of Palestine, whether right or wrong started the ball rolling.

The Jews were given what the world body (at the time) felt was a portion of their hereditary land.Israel. Immediately the arab world in gerneral attacked the new settlements(refused to concede to the UN mandate.) and has attacked and threatened Israel ever since. The wars are well documented. In the process Israel aquired more territory(as buffers, strategic locations) than it was originally given. It even made the mistake of settling some of these conquered areas. That only stirred the cauldron of Islamic hate for the infidels and non believers.I agree it was a mistake but wonder how else Israel could have survived?

The original disapproval of the partitiion has grown largely through Islamic middle eastern states refusing to believe Israel should even exist. The threats, raids and other irritants were, and still are, largely instigated by surrounding Islamic countries. US disapproval of these tactics and attempts to support the UN mandate have made the USA another Satan in accordance with Islamic thinking.
Another factor is the success and rchness of the Israeli nation midst a group of backward countries whose only revenues come from oil? Many Jews have been recruited to come and add to the sparse population that originally inhabited Israel. Thats a defensive manuever also.

I wonder if someone has a solution to this problem? Each US administration ever since 1949 has talked to and involved itself in negotiations and peace seeking alternatives with Palestinians and other middle eastern countries without any success. Israel is understandably interested in surviving(it has done so for 60 years) Rather than being overrun and conquered by Islamic forces it resists and tries to protect its sovereignty. We read and see that even if Israel makes a conciliatory move it is still subject to terrorist attacks and showers of missiles killing its innocent men, women and children? What else can it do? I think its more than a Jewish problem. It's a survival problem in an area that is Islamic and constantly threatens to destroy the Israeli nation . Would you propose to unwind 60 years of existence because some idiots don't like it?

In this aura of threats its no wonder that Syrian attempts to develop Nukes resulted in Israeli raids? If "Ahwannajihad" and his Iranian nut cases keep on developing nuclear weapons(along with threatening to annihilate Jews) they can expect the same or worse from Israel.

[PubliusInfinitu]

Ahh... "IT'S THE JEWS!"

ROFL...

Get serious. I'm an American protestant of Irish extraction and I fully support Israel's right to exist.

I couldn't POSSIBLY care less about how the Arabs feel about it.

Islam is a filthy, hateful, evil religion and I expect that in fairly short order it will be illegal pretty much across the board.

[Matt W]

Islam is a filthy, hateful, evil religion and I expect that in fairly short order it will be illegal pretty much across the board.

Ah, the voice of free America. Bigotry at its' best.

[Ibn_Sina]

Quote by: GHook93 LOL, if I remember correctly this guy got in trouble for Holocaust denial. Yep he was the one. Wow a bleeding heart liberal for the left decrying Israel. Shocking! It is also amazes me how the left can so easily support their obvious double standards with reason. Also he is not Jewish. His grandparents were Jewish, that hardly makes him Jewish. His parents left the religion behind to avoid persecution in the USSR.

What's condemning genocide against Arabs has to do with Holocaust denial?

[Ibn_Sina]

Quote by: xyzer I don't excuse Israels treatment of the Palestinians that have come ever increasingly intertwined with Israel, but I can rationalize it. The Partitition of Palestine, whether right or wrong started the ball rolling. The Jews were given what the world body (at the time) felt was a portion of their hereditary land.Israel. Immediately the arab world in gerneral attacked the new settlements(refused to concede to the UN mandate.) and has attacked and threatened Israel ever since. The wars are well documented. In the process Israel aquired more territory(as buffers, strategic locations) than it was originally given. It even made the mistake of settling some of these conquered areas. That only stirred the cauldron of Islamic hate for the infidels and non believers.I agree it was a mistake but wonder how else Israel could have survived? The original disapproval of the partitiion has grown largely through Islamic middle eastern states refusing to believe Israel should even exist. The threats, raids and other irritants were, and still are, largely instigated by surrounding Islamic countries. US disapproval of these tactics and attempts to support the UN mandate have made the USA another Satan in accordance with Islamic thinking. Another factor is the success and rchness of the Israeli nation midst a group of backward countries whose only revenues come from oil? Many Jews have been recruited to come and add to the sparse population that originally inhabited Israel. Thats a defensive manuever also. I wonder if someone has a solution to this problem? Each US administration ever since 1949 has talked to and involved itself in negotiations and peace seeking alternatives with Palestinians and other middle eastern countries without any success. Israel is understandably interested in surviving(it has done so for 60 years) Rather than being overrun and conquered by Islamic forces it resists and tries to protect its sovereignty. We read and see that even if Israel makes a conciliatory move it is still subject to terrorist attacks and showers of missiles killing its innocent men, women and children? What else can it do? I think its more than a Jewish problem. It's a survival problem in an area that is Islamic and constantly threatens to destroy the Israeli nation . Would you propose to unwind 60 years of existence because some idiots don't like it? In this aura of threats its no wonder that Syrian attempts to develop Nukes resulted in Israeli raids? If "Ahwannajihad" and his Iranian nut cases keep on developing nuclear weapons(along with threatening to annihilate Jews) they can expect the same or worse from Israel.

What? Are you feeling alright? Seriously, what nuclear weapons?