Rightwing American Zionists:

[Galaxar]

Quote by: GHook93 MacDonald the local white supremacist hero. Kevin B. MacDonald - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia What is your next theory? It has been scientifically prove that the Jew prefers Muslim blood with his matzo, then Christian Blood! Quick question: Does one's hair burn when its shaved all the way to the scalp?

I note that the Wiki quote cites the Southern Poverty Law Center. This is like quoting a dog on the subject of cats. The SPLC are professional witch hunters who make a nice living for themselves by sniffing out "racists" and "anti-Semites," and strangely enough they find them almost everywhere they look. Hardly a year goes by when they don't report that America is more racist than the year before, so you'd better send money now before the barbarians overrun the empire.

If you're trying to assassinate Prof. MacDonald's character, you'll have to do better than this.

[Galaxar]

Quote by: shrike If the argument is based on bigotry and racism is not worth to consider.

A vague, unsubstantiated accustion of bigotry and racism is not sufficient to invalidate an argument.

Or perhaps you're saying that anyone who opposes Zionism or questions Israel is a bigot and a racist?

[Galaxar]

Quote by: GHook93 "You can't handle the truth!" Had to put it in there. The Holocaust is the most widely documented event in history. The truth has been more well-documented than anything in history. Go to your local library they will have all the TRUTH you need! End of discussion, last comment I make to derail the thread.

The Gulags are every bit as well documented as the Holocaust, and several times as many people died under Stalin as died under Hitler. And yet there isn't an endless campaign to keep awareness of Stalin's crimes ever fresh in the minds of Americans and Europeans.

I don't deny the Holocaust. However, I'm sick of hearing about it over and over again, and I insist that all this excessive attention paid to it creates a seriously distorted popular view of the history of the twentieth century.

[shrike]

A vague, unsubstantiated accustion of bigotry and racism is not sufficient to invalidate an argument.

There is nothing vague he make direct reference toward American Jews.

Or perhaps you're saying that anyone who opposes Zionism or questions Israel is a bigot and a racist?

Anyone who denies the natural right of self identification for Jewish people is naturally hating Jews

[grandpa]

Quote by: Galaxar The Gulags are every bit as well documented as the Holocaust, and several times as many people died under Stalin as died under Hitler. And yet there isn't an endless campaign to keep awareness of Stalin's crimes ever fresh in the minds of Americans and Europeans.

This may be true. Also, remember that Hitler persecuted many other groups, as did the "Allies."

Joseph Sobran, another man considered to be an anti-Semite, actually put it brilliantly:

"The real evil is the use of the state as an instrument of death. Government,
perverted from it modest uses, can magnify every crime unimaginably.
That is the real 'lesson of the Holocaust,' the lesson our time still
refuses to learn."

Now, back to the issue of quoting anti-Semites. Other "anti-" people say things that are accurate as well.

For example, the Christian John Hagee has been criticized for saying:

The Roman Catholic Church, which was supposed to carry the light of the gospel, plunged the world into the Dark Ages.... The Crusaders were a motley mob of thieves, rapists, robbers, and murderers whose sins had been forgiven by the pope in advance of the Crusade.... The brutal truth is that the Crusades were military campaigns of the Roman Catholic Church to gain control of Jerusalem from the Muslims and to punish the Jews as the alleged Christ killers on the road to and from Jerusalem.

That's technically an "anti-Catholic" thing to say. However, from what I understand, it is accurate.

So is this:

Adolf Hitler attended a Catholic school as a child and heard all the fiery anti-Semitic rantings from Chrysostom to Martin Luther. When Hitler became a global demonic monster, the Catholic Church and Pope Pius XII never, ever slightly criticized him. Pope Pius XII, called by historians 'Hitler's Pope,' joined Hitler in the infamous Concordat of Collaboration, which turned the youth of Germany over to Nazism, and the churches became the stage background for the bloodthirsty cry, 'Pereat Judea'.... In all of his [Hitler's] years of absolute brutality, he was never denounced or even scolded by Pope Pius XII or any Catholic leader in the world. To those Christians who believe that Jewish hearts will be warmed by the sight of the cross, please be informed — to them it's an electric chair.

Catholic League: For Religious and Civil Rights

The Catholic League is pursuing an agenda, much like Israeli lobbyists.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

]

Quote by: shrike There is nothing vague he make direct reference toward American Jews. Anyone who denies the natural right of self identification for Jewish people is naturally hating Jews

So, are you saying that American Jews who challenge Zionist nationalism are "hating Jews?"

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

That's technically an "anti-Catholic" thing to say. However, from what I understand, it is accurate

You can stop being Catholic but you can't stop being a Jew. Hitler killed even converted Jews.
When your criticize any ideology its legitimate though it can be considered bigotry if you lump all those people together (for example all Catholics are paedos) but when your criticize a ethnicity that a pure racism.

[shrike]

So, are you saying that American Jews who challenge Zionist nationalism are "hating Jews?"

What kind of Jews?

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike What kind of Jews?

Well, American Jews in general. But there are organizations like "Jews United Against Zionism:

Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

They claim:

The State of "Israel" is illegitimate according to the Torah teachings. The founding of the State of "Israel" is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until released from that exile by G-d Himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace. We are likewise forbidden to rebel against any nation. We are to remain peaceful and loyal citizens, in every country in which we reside. Therefore to oppress the Palestinian people, harm them, steal their land, expel them, etc. is totally forbidden according to our Holy Torah.

note: I didn't type "G-d," they did.

Grandpa h.

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa Well, American Jews in general. But there are organizations like "Jews United Against Zionism: Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

You can't accept any reason from religious fanatics.

[Dagda]

You can stop being Catholic but you can't stop being a Jew

False. In Catholic ideology once you have been baptised you are always a member of Mother Church wether you like it or not. Even if you decide to become Muslim, the Church still conciders you Catholic. Catholosism isn't just for Christmas, it's for life, even if you convert.

[shrike]

False. In ideology once you have been baptised you are always a member of Mother Church wether you like it or not. Even if you decide to become Muslim, the Church still conciders you Catholic. Catholosism isn't just for Christmas, it's for life, even if you convert

Quick check in wiki shows

A person can excommunicate themselves or be excommunicated from membership in the Church by committing certain particularly grave sins.[151][152] Examples include violating the seal of confession (committed when a priest discloses the sins heard in the sacrament of Penance), persisting in heresy, creating schism, becoming an apostate, or having an abortion.[153] Throwing away the sacramental bread and wine received during the Eucharist or taking or retaining them for a sacrilegious purpose are also considered excommunicable offenses.[154] Excommunication is the most severe ecclesiastical penalty because it prevents a person from validly receiving any church sacrament. It can only be forgiven by the pope, the bishop of the diocese where the person resides, or priests authorized by him.[155] Among those who have been excommunicated or incurred excommunication are Arius, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I and members of the group Womenpriests.[156]

Roman Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Dagda]

Ofcourse, but that happens so rarley it is hardly worth counting. Also, I don't think you were talking about excimunication when you said catholics can stop being catholic.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Galaxar \ Or perhaps you're saying that anyone who opposes Zionism or questions Israel is a bigot and a racist?

95% are. The vast majority of so-called "anti-zionist" use it as a PC mask for their anti-semitism!

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa ] So, are you saying that American Jews who challenge Zionist nationalism are "hating Jews?" Grandpa h.

Very few do. I know you will go to quote the few loud ones.

But to answer you question, YES they are self-haters. Americans have many self-haters in many groups.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Galaxar I note that the Wiki quote cites the Southern Poverty Law Center. This is like quoting a dog on the subject of cats. The SPLC are professional witch hunters who make a nice living for themselves by sniffing out "racists" and "anti-Semites," and strangely enough they find them almost everywhere they look. Hardly a year goes by when they don't report that America is more racist than the year before, so you'd better send money now before the barbarians overrun the empire. If you're trying to assassinate Prof. MacDonald's character, you'll have to do better than this.

It you are trying to support a Nazi you will have to do a better job then what you are doing!

[GHook93]

Quote by: Galaxar The Gulags are every bit as well documented as the Holocaust, and several times as many people died under Stalin as died under Hitler. And yet there isn't an endless campaign to keep awareness of Stalin's crimes ever fresh in the minds of Americans and Europeans. I don't deny the Holocaust. However, I'm sick of hearing about it over and over again, and I insist that all this excessive attention paid to it creates a seriously distorted popular view of the history of the twentieth century.

There are 2 types of holocaust denial. One who outright denies it and one who demeans and downplays it.

I think just in your first few post, you demostrated where you fall in!

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 95% are. The vast majority of so-called "anti-zionist" use it as a PC mask for their anti-semitism!

According to you. However, by your standards, I'd be absolutely hateful of Catholics for quoting John Hagee, or any other source that criticizes Catholicism. It's nothing new. These simplistic tactics are applied all over the political//racial/religious spectrum.

Is the following an example of Jews being "anti-Chinese"?

Some Jewish leaders in the U.S. are calling for the boycott of the Olympics. In a petition called "China Olympics Are Not Kosher", they say: "We remember all too well that the road to Nazi genocide began in the 1930s, with Hitler's efforts to improve the public image of his evil regime. Nazi Germany sought to attract visitors to the 1936 Olympics in order to distract attention from its persecution of the Jews. Hitler's propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, called the 1936 games 'a victory for the German cause.' We dare not permit today's totalitarian regimes to achieve such victories." Kin-ming Liu at PostGlobal: China's Fall From Grace No Surprise - PostGlobal at washingtonpost.com

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Very few do. I know you will go to quote the few loud ones.

But they should. If nothing else, it's a part of introspective judgment. Why are there a "few loud ones?" Because not every Jew is a total coward. You may think a Jew has to hate himself to criticize "national identity," but I don't. Every person can question "national identity." It has nothing to do with "hating yourself." Arguments against ideological tyranny are nothing to be ashamed of.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 There are 2 types of holocaust denial. One who outright denies it and one who demeans and downplays it.

"Downplaying it" isn't necessarily "denial." Either way, it is true that not enough is said of other groups that Nazi Germany persecuted (and again, there were many).

Grandpa h.