Good Colonialism?

[Dagda]

There seems to be a misconception among some that the old Brittish Empire(and, indeed the French, Spanish or even American one) created in its colonies some good. This is idiotic. Not only did many come under Imperial sway by armed conflict(never good) they raped the local reasources and destroyed local culture. Even after the colonials left, they left basketcase economies. No-where do I see benifits of Imperialism that outweigh the down side.
That is why I think an Empire can never be a force of good.

[Anmon]

Law of the jungle applys here sorry.If you cant defend your territory, then what right do you really have to it?

[Matt W]

Are you actually debating the topic, Anmon? Try reading the question that has actually been asked.

[Anmon]

I did read it, like I already said, law of the jungle permits colonialism.

[Matt W]

Ah, but that wasn't the question, was it? Do the benefits outweigh the issues created?

[Anmon]

Depends who for doesn't it.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: Anmon Depends who for doesn't it.

Not in an honest assessment, it doesn't. Lets look at the issue. I will grant you that empire reaps short term benefits. So if the question was, "Can a select few enrich themselves through empire?", your answer would make some sense. But that is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is "Can Empire be a force for good?"

The British Empire was not a force for good in southern Asia. Its results are there for all the world to see. In order to maintain the empire, they had to divide to rule. Now we have endless conflict between India and Pakistan that could become nuclear in nature. The British reaped few, if any, long term benefits as a nation and they, along with the rest of the world, have to face the consequences that decades of oppression has wrought on the people of India and Pakistan. The Western Imperial policies in the Middle East have left us with the same type of raging conflict. Kurds wanting independence, but divided as a people between multiple states that seek to maintain control of traditionally Kurdish territory. A map filled with artificial dividing lines between old tribal and religious affiliations.

China? Well, that was a whopping success, now wasn't it?

The French gave us the problems in Algeria and South East Asia. The Belgians gave us the gift of the Rwandan genocide. US policies have birthed the Latin American mess and the virtual disappearance of the aboriginal populations in the "New World". How, in the name of all that is good and right, can you claim that Empire has been a net gain to humanity. If what the imperial west was selling was better, why wasn't it accepted willingly? Isn't that the supposed truth behind our culture and technology?

I am not saying that western culture and advances are all bad. I am saying our incessant need to conquer and establish empire has led to most of the modern misery. I am saying our love affair with Capitalism is sucking the planet dry. We bring lots of crap that people find appealing, but with little balance. We need to step back and stop patting ourselves on the back for polio vaccines and air conditioning and start figuring out how to fix all the mess we brought along with those advances. The first step is developing an understanding of how Empire has offered more problems than solutions in the final cost/benefit equation.

[Trotsky]

Yes, the benefits in some cases out-weigh the draw backs. Post-colonial policies are normally where all the "fun" started. Zimbabwe/Rhodesia for example.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Trotsky Post-colonial policies are normally where all the "fun" started.

To be fair, the carnage and stupidity should be weighed against the immediate benefits.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon Law of the jungle applys here sorry.If you cant defend your territory, then what right do you really have to it?

If I ever feel like taking over someone's home, I'll keep your argument in mind.

Grandpa h.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: grandpa To be fair, the carnage and stupidity should be weighed against the immediate benefits. Grandpa h.

Generally there are/were no immediate benefits, apart from actuall avoiding having to help build up institutions needed for a state to develep or as was the case with Great Britian and Rhodesia/Zimbabwe undermining those institutions to get yer sorry ass out of there pronto.

[Anmon]

Quote by: grandpa If I ever feel like taking over someone's home, I'll keep your argument in mind. Grandpa h.

Its not my arguement, I would never take anyones home.
Even if I could, I would make my own rather.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Trotsky Generally there are/were no immediate benefits, apart from actuall avoiding having to help build up institutions needed for a state to develep or as was the case with Great Britian and Rhodesia/Zimbabwe undermining those institutions to get yer sorry ass out of there pronto.

I wasn't being serious. I thought I made that obvious enough, especially with that bloody emoticon. After experiencing colonialism, a culture often looks like giant dogs had torn it apart.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon Its not my arguement, I would never take anyones home. Even if I could, I would make my own rather.

But you said soemthing to this effect: "If one can't defend his/her home, it's questionable if it should belong to him/her." Hence, I responded as I did.

Grandpa h.

[Anmon]

Quote by: grandpa But you said soemthing to this effect: "If one can't defend his/her home, it's questionable if it should belong to him/her." Hence, I responded as I did. Grandpa h.

Exactly, if you cant defend your own home or country, then what right do you have to it in the first place.
As for me I don't attack the meek, I try to defend them from the strong.
Stupid I know.

[Dagda]

if you cant defend your own home or country, then what right do you have to it in the first place.

A conqurer has no right to take over another culture mearly because of a twist of fate that leaves them less able to defend themselves. Take the native americans, a twist of fate meant they never had access to the reasources of the European settlers. This was not a fault of there's, just luck. To justify the atrocities commited against them mearly because of there bad luck is insanity.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon Exactly, if you cant defend your own home or country, then what right do you have to it in the first place.

Then it is your view. Either that or you have no idea what you're talking about. Or maybe you're kidding.

Anyway, you suggested one shouldn't has no right to something merely because he/she can't physically defend it. That's an absurd contention, as far as I'm concerned. And I say it's absurd for some pretty obvious reasons. Obviously, if I believed what you said, I could go on a killing spree, as anyone who wouldn't survive didn't deesrve to live.

Unfortunately, yours isn't the first post I've seen offering this view.

Quote by: Anmon As for me I don't attack the meek, I try to defend them from the strong.

And here you blatantly contradict yourself.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dagda A conqurer has no right to take over another culture mearly because of a twist of fate that leaves them less able to defend themselves. Take the native americans, a twist of fate meant they never had access to the reasources of the European settlers.

Disease largely explains why they weren't keeping pace (or however you want to put it). The sad thing is, a lot in those tribes were willing to share the land, or at least substantial parts of it. There was plenty of it to go around, and now we seem to have less and less.

Grandpa h.

[Anmon]

[quote]

Quote by: grandpa Anyway, you suggested one shouldn't has no right to something merely because he/she can't physically defend it. That's an absurd contention, as far as I'm concerned. And I say it's absurd for some pretty obvious reasons. Obviously, if I believed what you said, I could go on a killing spree, as anyone who wouldn't survive didn't deesrve to live.

Its a tough cruel world mate, I dont make the rules.
If you cant defend your country someone will eventually take it off you.

And here you blatantly contradict yourself.

Like I said, thats just me, not the world.

[SoylentGreen]

Anmon Its a tough cruel world mate, I dont make the rules. If you cant defend your country someone will eventually take it off you.

I am sorry to say that I actually agree with you there, not sorry that I agree with you but sorry that what you say is true.
It is about resources and if a place like China wants to dam it's rivers then tough luck for the little countries like Korea that need the water, Or if America wants to steal some else's oil then all they need is a flimsy excuse. And Europe is happy to supply arms to warlords in Africa as long as they can continue asset stealing the wealth of African minerals.