Abolish capitalism to save the planet?

[nerdvincent]

Bolivian president Evo Morales, now in New York to celebrate Earth Day, said that we should get rid of capitalism to save the planet:
Earth Day At The UN: Abolish Capitalism
What do you think? Would it work? Would you accept large-scale solution like this?
I say: the sooner the better.
[700th post!]

[Voluntary]

Quote by: nerdvincent What do you think?

I think it is nonsense.

Would it work? Would you accept large-scale solution like this?

Would what work? Abolish capitalism and replace it with what?

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Voluntary I think it is nonsense.

Nice. And?

[Voluntary]

And what? You want to abolish every aspect of capitalism and private property and replace it with what? Communism, socialism, mercantilism, or some other novel economic paradigm.

[LadiesMan217]

For the few problems capitalism has, it is still the greatest economical system the world has and has ever known. There is nothing better to replace it with and probably won't ever be anything better to replace it with. This Morales guy makes no sense, how would abolishing capitalism help us fight global warming. There is no logic in his statements, it would be more logical to abolish communism since Communist China is responsible for the majority of the world's pollution and it is capitalist America that seems to be the only country that gives a damn about global warming, so where is this guy's logic? Note to self: never visit Bolivia due to great risk of blindness from rolling eyes into back of skull from all the bs pollution.

[Voluntary]

America's greedy and evil private sector is at it again trying to spurn innovative solutions. Those damn capitalists:

15 Algae Startups Bringing Pond Scum to Fuel Tanks « Earth2Tech

[Technosoul]

We could replace capitalism with tribal shamanism.

Me Tarzan, You Jane.

The old system of open market places where you can bargan with each dealer or even trade what you got for what they have. Like we do at swapmeets and garage sales.
Instead of the pre-priced monopoly of chain store-ism.

But one thing that capitalism gives people is a motive to work hard, which the "free-bee" cultures cannot offer people.

What is needed however is oversite regulation of capitalism to insure that wild areas (which are still left) remain wild, and perhaps even being able to set-aside more areas that are not distroyed yet by human occupation.

In other words, I would favor "limited capitalism" and less " name-brand, chain store" mentality. Get it back in the hands of everyday people, the old mainstreet mom and pop stores, etc.

But going backwards is not what the profit driven industry is about. None the less it was sad to say goodbye to mainstreet USA that I grew up in.

Now I shop at this small market near my house, owned by this fellow from Iran who has his two teen sons working in the store. They do not lett on where they came from but I found out one evening when he was listening to some music from Turkey on his computer in the store, he might be a Kurd? But they speak good english and good spanish.

Last night I went in and the kid had his baseball hat on sideways and he asked "how does this look"? I said "you look like a homie" . He did not know what that was, so I tried to explain about rap music and home boys in the hood, etc. He still seemed a bit confused but when I walked out he truned his baseball hat to face foreward. Hmm?

Zack the owner does not like the idea that the big stores can buy in great volume and under-sell him. They do not sell pre-packaged hamburger but will make up ground beef on the spot in their meat section. Lots of locals love their pre-seasoned meats and so he is doing okay - trying to live the American dream the old way.

[Voluntary]

Quote by: Technosoul The old system of open market places where you can bargan with each dealer or even trade what you got for what they have. Like we do at swapmeets and garage sales. Instead of the pre-priced monopoly of chain store-ism.

Why would I want to haggle over ever transaction that I make a day. There is a convenience to knowing how much something costs. Do you really expect someone to haggle with a grocery clerk over every item in their carriage?

BTW, you are arguing for a different pricing structure, not a different economic system.

In other words, I would favor "limited capitalism" and less " name-brand, chain store" mentality. Get it back in the hands of everyday people, the old mainstreet mom and pop stores, etc.

IOW, you want to replace capitalism with capitalism. You just want different people to own the capital.

[gela]

and it is capitalist America that seems to be the only country that gives a damn about global warming,

Lol.

America? the only country that gives a damn about global warming?

You haven't even signed the Kyoto protocol. As far as I can tell, your government has done nothing to help global warming.

[Century 25]

Quote by: gela Lol. America? the only country that gives a damn about global warming? You haven't even signed the Kyoto protocol. As far as I can tell, your government has done nothing to help global warming.

Acel mate.. our "prez" is not the full quid, but he's a moolah stealin' swagman for the gangsters he works for.

The only way capitalism could work is with checks & balances.. and those with the $$$ aren't about to have their bankrolls checked & balanced. So.. eventually, as in past history, the USA is gonna tank. Picked clean by the greedy capitalists. Then we'll be like Mexico, a 2 class country.. the fabulously wealthy.. or the serfs.. dirt poor.


"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail."
Gore Vidal

.

[LadiesMan217]

gela, century 25, nerdvincent, what do suppose we replace capitalism with? I really hate when people crap all other capitalism and have no solutions and then it ends up that they really want communism or socialism and then once we get that far, I can stop pretending to take you seriously.

[Voluntary]

Quote by: Century 25 So.. eventually, as in past history, the USA is gonna tank. Picked clean by the greedy capitalists. Then we'll be like Mexico, a 2 class country.. the fabulously wealthy.. or the serfs.. dirt poor.

I would love to hear this theory. I am sure that excessive military spending to police the world, a declining educational system, providing health care and educational services to illegal immigrants, wasting money on unnecessary programs, agricultural subsidies (which also hurt 3rd world farmers), pork barrel spending, etc. has nothing to do with a declining America.

Let's point the finger at capitalism.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: LadiesMan217 gela, century 25, nerdvincent, what do suppose we replace capitalism with? I really hate when people crap all other capitalism and have no solutions and then it ends up that they really want communism or socialism and then once we get that far, I can stop pretending to take you seriously.

I said abolishing capitalism, but the alternative depends of peoples. I'm for Luxemburgism, but there is anarcho-communist, plain ol' marxists and hardcore socialists on volconvo. But I'm talking about abolishing capitalism, which is taking another economic system which is not based on hardcore consumerism, stock exchange, wage, and offshoring to use cheap worker and to get cheap ressources.

[loser]

The Native American Indians had no concept of land ownership or capitalism. It was all about stewardship (of the earth), sharing (brotherhood of man), and taking only what was needed (not amassing wealth). It worked pretty well for them until the greedy (and dishonorable) Europeans came and destroyed their world.

Capitalism works well for selfish liars and unconscionable thieves; it wasn't designed for honest altruists...or by them.

[Voluntary]

Quote by: nerdvincent I said abolishing capitalism, but the alternative depends of peoples. I'm for Luxemburgism, but there is anarcho-communist, plain ol' marxists and hardcore socialists on volconvo.

Communism/Socialism does not have a history of succeeding. It does have a history of oppressing people. Perhaps you could make a case for Yugoslavia and the Mondregon experiment.

But I'm talking about abolishing capitalism, which is taking another economic system which is not based on hardcore consumerism, stock exchange, wage, and offshoring to use cheap worker and to get cheap ressources.

Here is economics 101. Capitalism is based off of private means of ownership, private property, market forces to determine prices, investment, and production.

[LadiesMan217]

and offshoring to use cheap worker and to get cheap ressources.

which also leads to cheaper products for you and me. I would prefer that American jobs did not get outsourced but, I do not like it when people try to spin it as exploitation of foreign people when they usually had nothing to do for money before American companies gave them jobs and generally it is a great opportunity for their community.

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: Voluntary Communism/Socialism does not have a history of succeeding. It does have a history of exploiting people. Perhaps you could make a case for Yugoslavia and Mondregon experiment.

All the communist experiment tried were incomplete marxist revolution. Luxemburgism is non-revolutionary and doesn't imply a dictatorship of the working class (which caused every "communist" countries to stick with a ex-farmer dictator). As for the socialists ideas, well your talking without thinking. As far as I know, Norway got the highest HDI, not America, and Norway is the most socialist country in the world.

Quote by: Voluntary Here is economics 101. Capitalism is based off of private means of ownership, private property, market forces to determine prices, investment, and production.

Yep. Nothing to say. You pretty much described where it flaws.

[another day]

I think we're seeing the inevitable trend that free market produces lately. Companies are seeing how consumers are starting to care about the "eco-friendliness" of the products they buy, and are thus investing time and money into developing more eco friendly products or ways of producing their products. What's necessary is not to abolish capitalism but to increase public awareness and get people to start making conscientious decisions about their spending habits.

Or you can think that people are too stupid to do this themselves and that they have to be forced and controlled by the government.

[nerdvincent]

Ok I'll explain: capitalism needs consumerism to survive. If the country stop consuming good, the economy fall. But since Fordism, we must consume more to...well consume more, or the economy fall. But consuming more and more leads to wicked production, and wicked production leads to pollution, pollution leads to global warming.

[another day]

The only problem with your position is that production must not necessarily lead to problematic pollution. That is the whole struggle we are currently facing, how to overcome or at least drastically minimize the problems of pollution and waste in our production of goods.