N.J. High School Football Coach Has No Right To Encourage Student Prayers

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Chancellor Tell that to certain members of Volconvo and others who so damned rabidly object to any public expression of religion whatsoever! So, don't give me this crap about how freedom from religion doesn't mean being free from seeing religion in society.

Let's try it really, really slowly...

You have the right to pray anywhere you like, beyond stopping traffic, interrupting court proceedings, and other obvious exceptions.

ON YOUR OWN TIME.

You can pray at home, in church, on a sidewalk, in the aisles of a super market, in a theater (although not aloud during the show... folks might object), in your car, at your desk at work or in school.

If you have a group of like minded friends, you can all gather in you home, in church, on the sidwalk, the aisles of a grocery store (wait, that's private property... the management will probably have to be willing), before and after work, before and after each class in school, or where ever.

What you can't do, in government funded institutions, in force me to deal with YOUR PRAYERS on MY TIME. That's the line in the sand.

And no, it's not the same thing as simply "being visible".

Quote by: caphis don't have any inherent problem with Borden leading the prayer, as long as, again, it was an entirely voluntary exercise.

It's inherently involuntary if I have to choose to participate or not participate with my teammates. I shouldn't be forced to make that choice.

Quote by: Rainbow A hypothetical situation #1 : - room - 40 players - all the players pray individually Is that event recognized as : - individual or - group ? A hypothetical situation #2 : - room - 40 players - all the players meditate individually. Is that event recognized as : - individual or - group ? :-)))

You've never played team sports, have you, Rainbow? I have... lots... and it doesn't work that way. Home or away, you show up in the locker room with plenty of time to get suited up and taped up, or whatever. You have LOTS of time to yourself... most spend it joking around with teammates, going over plays, visualizing the upcoming game, getting their gameface on... and yes, even praying... before Coach finally comes iin for his pre-game fire-up before sending us onto the field.

You can easily tell who's absorbed in their own thoughts and want's to be left alone. Simple as that.

Neither of your scenerios apply.

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[Rainbow]

Quote by: Sonart You've never played team sports, have you, Rainbow? I have... lots... and it doesn't work that way. Home or away, you show up in the locker room with plenty of time to get suited up and taped up, or whatever. You have LOTS of time to yourself... most spend it joking around with teammates, going over plays, visualizing the upcoming game, getting their gameface on... and yes, even praying... before Coach finally comes iin for his pre-game fire-up before sending us onto the field. You can easily tell who's absorbed in their own thoughts and want's to be left alone. Simple as that. Neither of your scenerios apply.

(Maybe not that LOTs, but) I did played, instead :-)))
I simply see no reason to turn my private enterprise into wishful desire to be directed and/or brought to God's attention. That is not what Faith is all about.
Exception : event(s) that may shift around and/or influence my whole life.

The hypothetical scenarios (I present) apply to all of us, everyday. They may not necessarily match submitted ones, yet we follow them in every single moment.
Example :
- guys walking down the street

Another aspect of this thread's issue.
Since I may not express my religious approach in public :
- what is the reason that I need to respect those with no-religious affiliation guys, while the those guys seem to present no respect to my religious affiliation
???
Why guys with no-religious approach force me to obey their request ?
What happens when we reverse that process ?
The point is :
- wrongly understood the concept of (so-called) Democracy
- lack of tolerance
- biased approach
- stereotypical way of thinking
- etc.
These are Psychology and Sociology-related issues.

Back to topic
Are you suggesting that players with no-religious affiliation, have no clue on events in locker-room prior a game ? and they have just realized that lately ?
I believe that some Democracy-thirsty maniacs have problems with tolerating their co-players. That is the reason that whole event ended up on a judge's desk.

P.S.
Democracy is a slogan that works the best : on paper.
Whatever we have it is much better than others', though :-)

[Mick Jagger]

Quote by: Anmon Like a few prayers are going to hurt anyone.

Prayer isn't the issue, Bullwinkle. The issue is human authority over prayer.

[Mick Jagger]

Quote by: Whilletal I agree you can't, and shouldn't, require anyone to pray.

But government advisory authority over prayer is just fine with you, isn't it?

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: Rainbow (Are you suggesting that players with no-religious affiliation, have no clue on events in locker-room prior a game ? and they have just realized that lately ?)

I don't think they've just clued in, I think they're just now feeling it **might*** be safe to stand up and object to it.

And that's iffy.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Rainbow (Maybe not that LOTs, but) I did played, instead :-))) I simply see no reason to turn my private enterprise into wishful desire to be directed and/or brought to God's attention. That is not what Faith is all about. Exception : event(s) that may shift around and/or influence my whole life.

Well that's a whole 'nuther question, isn't it... whether it's appropriate to pray for the outcome of a sporting event. I have no problem either way...

(Although I get REALLY MIFFED at athletes who get in front of a mike after winning some event, and explain how their praying to Jesus was the reason they won. LIke, what?? The other guy didn't pray hard enough? Did Jesus just like you better?)

Quote by: Rainbow Example : - guys walking down the street

What about a guy walking down the street. If he wants to stop and pray... or if he and his entire posse are walking down the street and decide to stop, grab hands and pray... I have no problem with that.

Guy and his posse come to a bus stop where I'm waiting for a bus with some other folks, and he says, "Hey, everyone, let's all gather round and pray before the bus comes." No, thank you, and I resent you're presuming to impose your beliefs on folks who didn't ask for it.

Quote by: Rainbow Since I may not express my religious approach in public :

Who says you can't? You just can't impose it on others.

- what is the reason that I need to respect those with no-religious affiliation guys, while the those guys seem to present no respect to my religious affiliation

How on earth did you arrive at that??? Did someone ask you to join in on a recital of atheist quotes or a Buddhist chant or something?

You're inventing problems... you're saying it's disrespectful for others to complain about being asked to join in honoring your religion, so why should you respect others who aren't asking you to join in anything?

That's pretty silly.

Quote by: Rainbow Are you suggesting that players with no-religious affiliation, have no clue on events in locker-room prior a game ? and they have just realized that lately ?

I'm saying they have plenty of time to pray individually if they so desire, or to gather with other Christians for a prayer, before Coach comes in to fire 'em up and lead 'em out onto the field. And no, I generally didn't pay much attention to what others were doing... I was busy visualising the upcoming game and getting my game face screwed on good and tight, but it wouldn't matter if I had. What they did was their business, just as mine was mine.

Quote by: Rainbow I believe that some Democracy-thirsty maniacs have problems with tolerating their co-players. That is the reason that whole event ended up on a judge's desk.

Again, that's just stupid. We're all in that locker room for one reason... to go out as a team and kick the other #@!&%+*'s collective asses. We're not there to preach our particular religious beliefs to each other.

What's not to understand here, Rainbow?

Quote by: Anmon Like a few prayers are going to hurt anyone.

Like I said... have the Coach recite a Buddhist Chant or a sura from the Q'uran, and watch how many good 'ol American parents starting howling in pain!

Quote by: JaneDoe I don't think they've just clued in, I think they're just now feeling it **might*** be safe to stand up and object to it. And that's iffy.

There it is... and I sorta resent that I'd have been riciduled and called a whiner if I had complained, but gawd forbid if a student from... say... India ever asked Coach if he could lead everyone in a Hindu sutra.

.

[Anmon]

Quote by: Sonart . Like I said... have the Coach recite a Buddhist Chant or a sura from the Q'uran, and watch how many good 'ol American parents starting howling in pain! .

I wonder why.
Imagine a Christian coach wanting to read out a christian prayer to a team in the middle east, just how many good ol' Islamic parents would do a alot more than just howl in pain.

[Hurt]

Quote by: Anmon I wonder why. Imagine a Christian coach wanting to read out a christian prayer to a team in the middle east, just how many good ol' Islamic parents would do a alot more than just howl in pain.

But then remember the difference in allotted religious freedom?

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Sonart 1. (Although I get REALLY MIFFED at athletes who get in front of a mike after winning some event, and explain how their praying to Jesus was the reason they won. LIke, what?? The other guy didn't pray hard enough? Did Jesus just like you better?) 2. What about a guy walking down the street. If he wants to stop and pray... or if he and his entire posse are walking down the street and decide to stop, grab hands and pray... I have no problem with that. Guy and his posse come to a bus stop where I'm waiting for a bus with some other folks, and he says, "Hey, everyone, let's all gather round and pray before the bus comes." No, thank you, and I resent you're presuming to impose your beliefs on folks who didn't ask for it. 3. Who says you can't? You just can't impose it on others. 4. How on earth did you arrive at that??? Did someone ask you to join in on a recital of atheist quotes or a Buddhist chant or something? You're inventing problems... you're saying it's disrespectful for others to complain about being asked to join in honoring your religion, so why should you respect others who aren't asking you to join in anything? That's pretty silly. 5. Again, that's just stupid. We're all in that locker room for one reason... to go out as a team and kick the other #@!&%+*'s collective asses. We're not there to preach our particular religious beliefs to each other. What's not to understand here, Rainbow ?

#1
:-)))

#2
This is a satiric(al) example, but I did dnot mean that.
I meant the following :
- our activity is affected by set of norms and/or relugations by the environment, community, society, group, etc. we occupy and/or stay within

#3, #5
Respect others and try not to impose anything on them, instead.

#4
Respect works in Both ways, and not one way selectively and/or exclusively.
Is that silly, really ???

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Anmon I wonder why. Imagine a Christian coach wanting to read out a christian prayer to a team in the middle east, just how many good ol' Islamic parents would do a alot more than just howl in pain.

This isn't about other countries, it's about ours, the one that claims to a shining bastion of equality, liberty and justice. Are you trying to say that because some Muslim countries are intolerant, we shouldn't object because American is not quite as intolerant? Either we have the courage of our convictions, or we don't. Which is it?

As to "Christian" coaches, my former wife is a fourth generation American, the same as me, except where my people came from Wales and Ireland, hers came from Japan, and she was, as were all her extended family, raised a practicing Buddhist. That includes her Uncle, who's a Vietnam vet and a Football and Baseball Coach at Farrington High School in Honolulu. Buddhists don't believe in gods.

If he got a job in the midwest, do you suppose he could have the team take a knee and offer up a little Buddhist prayer of courage...

--"Assailed by afflictions, we discover Dharma
And find the way to liberation. Thank you, evil forces!

When sorrows invade the mind, we discover Dharma
And find lasting happiness. Thank you, sorrows!

Through harm caused by spirits we discover Dharma
And find fearlessness. Thank you, ghosts and demons!

Through people's hate we discover Dharma
And find benefits and happiness. Thank you, those who hate us!

Through cruel adversity, we discover Dharma
And find the unchanging way. Thank you, adversity!

Through being impelled to by others, we discover Dharma
And find the essential meaning. Thank you, all who drive us on!

We dedicate our merit to you all, to repay your kindness."--

Maybe even set up a little Shinto Shrine by the doors, so the players can file by and awaken and honor the spirits before hitting the field.

I don't think any of the parents should mind, do you? I mean it's not like a little prayer is going to hurt anyone?

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[Sonart]

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Quote by: Rainbow - our activity is affected by set of norms and/or relugations by the environment, community, society, group, etc. we occupy and/or stay within

It sounds like you're saying that because something is a "Traditional Value", we just have to deal with it. Recent history has shown both that not all 'Traditional Values' are good, and that we can over come them if we choose.

American history has show that

Quote by: Rainbow #3, #5 Respect others and try not to impose anything on them, instead. #4 Respect works in Both ways, and not one way selectively and/or exclusively. Is that silly, really ???

And yet that's what you keep advocating... imposing Christian prayers on people who may or may not care to participate. Somehow, by your twisted logic, it's more insulting for non-Christians to be so rude as to not be respectful of your prayers than it is for Christians to be respectful of others desires not to be imposed upon.

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[Rainbow]

Quote by: Sonart It sounds like you're saying that because something is a "Traditional Value", we just have to deal with it. Recent history has shown both that not all 'Traditional Values' are good, and that we can over come them if we choose. American history has show that And yet that's what you keep advocating... imposing Christian prayers on people who may or may not care to participate. Somehow, by your twisted logic, it's more insulting for non-Christians to be so rude as to not be respectful of your prayers than it is for Christians to be respectful of others desires not to be imposed upon.

What are you talking about ? :-)))
(Re-read my posts, prior posting, please.)

[Voluntary]

Quote by: Anmon I'm a Christian, and we can pray out loud in public where ever we like, freedom of speech says so.

Wrong

Quote by: Anmon Why is it wrong, don't you believe in free speech?

A blatant strawman.

I see the world as my church and home, and I am allowed to have that opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion. Religion belongs in the home and in the church. The public sphere is not your church. It also belongs to other people. Ever hear of separation of church and state?

Well maybe next time I'm preached gay rights at, I'll just ask them to keep it to themselves, to only think it.

What you babbling about. There is a clear distinction between giving athletes a moment of silence to themselves and coercive group prayer.

You are, you are displaying bigotry.

You are displaying idiocy. How am I being a bigot? I don't believe in coercive prayer nor do I believe that prayer should be allowed in school. Keep the 10 Commandments out of public property.

To highlight the bigotry of this football coach:
"Borden’s actions came under scrutiny when parents complained about his prayer practices. At one point, the coach allegedly told athletes who did not want to participate in the prayers that they could wait in a bathroom."

Sounds like second class treatment if you didn't join in the christian ceremonies. I wonder how that affected your gametime.


p.s.You can still prayer as long as it does not affect other students.

[Voluntary]

Quote by: Chancellor Why do you feel that you have to be protected from exposure to religious expression. What part of "free exercise of religion" in the first amendment do you not understand? There is no right to freedom from religion.

" If we want to pray out loud, we will and as loud as we like, if you don't like it, then block your ears."--Anmon.

Go and scream and shout your prayers as loud as you like. Most people posses a decorum of decency. If you want to shout your prayers in public, by all means do. Be careful, you may be charged with disturbing the peace.

Let's carry your stupidity further: why should religious people be exposed to your secular expression?

Stupidity is making an extraordinary claim without backing it up and then believing in it. You make the claim, you back it up. Believing in an imaginary entity is irrational, dishonest, and delusional.

Who the hell do you think you are to try to force your beliefs on religious people and, worse, who the hell do you think you are to demand that the government support you in your animus toward religion (much like the "religious right" tries to do)?

I don't have an animus towards religion. Just towards people who don't believe in the separation of church and state. Believe it or not, I get along fine with my many christian friends. They have a degree of tolerance which some religious people don't.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Rainbow What are you talking about ? :-))) (Re-read my posts, prior posting, please.)

Hmmmm... thought I had. Let me try again.

Quote by: Rainbow #2 This is a satiric(al) example, but I did dnot mean that. I meant the following : - our activity is affected by set of norms and/or regulations by the environment, community, society, group, etc. we occupy and/or stay within

By this I figured you were referring to the traditional values of America's Christian majority, which is essentially that what's good for Christians ought to be good enough for everyone else.

Quote by: Rainbow #3, #5 Respect others and try not to impose anything on them, instead.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but what I think I keep hearing is the incredibly backwards logic that it's the non-Christians who are imposing their will and showing lack of respect by demanding that Christians stop imposing their religion on others and showing disrespect by presuming it shouldn't matter to non-Christians because, as stated above, what's good for Christians ought to be good enough for everyone else.

Quote by: Rainbow #4 Respect works in Both ways, and not one way selectively and/or exclusively. Is that silly, really ???

Pretty much what I just stated above. "If you want us Christians to respect your ways, then you have to respect our right to have our way as the dominant religion." Pretty weird logic, if I understand it correctly.

.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Sonart Hmmmm... thought I had. Let me try again. By this I figured you were referring to the traditional values of America's Christian majority, which is essentially that what's good for Christians ought to be good enough for everyone else. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but what I think I keep hearing is the incredibly backwards logic that it's the non-Christians who are imposing their will and showing lack of respect by demanding that Christians stop imposing their religion on others and showing disrespect by presuming it shouldn't matter to non-Christians because, as stated above, what's good for Christians ought to be good enough for everyone else. Pretty much what I just stated above. "If you want us Christians to respect your ways, then you have to respect our right to have our way as the dominant religion." Pretty weird logic, if I understand it correctly.

Not quite correct :-)
@Sonart
"Respect works in Both ways, and not one way selectively and/or exclusively. Religious and/or Non-Religious approach is Ir-relevant."
This is the sense of my expression.
The example with "walking down the street" is an expansion, directed at psychological and/or social factors, and it is conditioned by the value of coin.
In short : there is a long way ahead for Homo Sapiens, till it reaches the level for fundamental values of Respect. So far, overwhelming portion of Homo Sapiens simulates that process, only.

[another day]

No one has thus far suggested that anyone be able to tell everyone to join in prayer. In fact, in the story in the OP, the coach didn't even require everyone to join.

Right, we all know the culture of a football team. If some kid said he didn't want to pray he would be ostracized and insulted. Heck, maybe if they lost they would blame that kid for not praying.

Besides, what a bunch of bullshit. What kind of sensible religious man would pray to win a football game? That is making a perverted mockery of God and it is insulting to his name.

You are entitled to your opinion. Religion belongs in the home and in the church. The public sphere is not your church. It also belongs to other people. Ever hear of separation of church and state?

I see you have no understanding whatsoever of the core tenets of separation of church and state. It does not mean you cannot pray in public, or preach in public, or whatever. It means the state cannot advocate religion, or include religion in it's state run facilities.

However, a state-employed coach does not have the right to advocate religion to his players, who are playing for a state run school.