N.J. High School Football Coach Has No Right To Encourage Student Prayers

[Voluntary]

Quote by: Anmon I'm a Christian, and we can pray out loud in public where ever we like, freedom of speech says so.

Wrong.

the world is my house and church.

Wrong

He wasn't he gave the option to pray if you liked, you really are making a big deal out of nothing, you are just being Christophobic.

Allowing athletes moments to themselves is fine. I am in accordance. I am not being Christophobic...lol.

[Anmon]

[quote]

Quote by: Voluntary Wrong.

Why is it wrong, don't you believe in free speech?

Wrong

I see the world as my church and home, and I am allowed to have that opinion.

Allowing athletes moments to themselves is fine. I am in accordance.

Well maybe next time I'm preached gay rights at, I'll just ask them to keep it to themselves, to only think it.

I am not being Christophobic...lol.

You are, you are displaying bigotry.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Mick Jagger N.J. High School Football Coach Has No Right To Encourage Student Prayers, Federal Appeals Court Says..... Americans United: N.J. High School Football Coach Has No Right To Encourage Student Prayers, Federal Appeals Court Says

To me the guy is showboating. He's probably a bit of a nut. I make the sign of cross often, but usually try to conceal it. Prayer is personal. If this were a religious school it would be ok, but in a public school it's too demonstrative. He's singling the kids out that don't want to pray. This makes for an uncomfortable situation. He should know better.

[Whilletal]

[quote=Milton Bradley;496805]What, you couldn't pray before the event?


Poor, poor persecuted Christians.


I bet you guys would object if you found the Coach to be a Satanist, and the calls were for Satanist prayers.[/QUOTE

I'm not claiming to be persecuted. I just stated that no one should be forced to pray and that no one should be denied the right to pray. How does that make me sound persecuted? I thought it is a rational response. If there is a Satanist who feels the need to pray to his/her god then the same thing applies to them. So why would this be a problem Milton?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Voluntary Bigotry at it's finest. Why do you need to pray out loud to a personal god on a public stage? If you have this right, then I can blow second hand smoke into your lungs since this is my god's law. If you don't like it, then block your lungs.

Why do you feel that you have to be protected from exposure to religious expression. What part of "free exercise of religion" in the first amendment do you not understand? There is no right to freedom from religion. Let's carry your stupidity further: why should religious people be exposed to your secular expression? Who the hell do you think you are to try to force your beliefs on religious people and, worse, who the hell do you think you are to demand that the government support you in your animus toward religion (much like the "religious right" tries to do)?

On the other side of that coin, however, the government had damned well better keep its hands off religion - and that means, among other things, teachers (government representatives) have no business forcing, requiring, encouraging, etc. students to participate in religious activities (like making Ganeshes or worry dolls or "taking a knee" as in the case in question), or prohibiting students from such activities (like a recent case in I think Wisconsin).

[Jack]

There is no right to freedom from religion.

Do you disagree with the following?

Myth: You have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Response: This claim is common, but it rests on a misunderstanding of what real freedom of religion entails. The most important thing to remember is that freedom of religion, if it is going to apply to everyone, also requires freedom from religion. Why is that? You do not truly have the freedom to practice your religious beliefs if you are also required to adhere to any of the religious beliefs or rules of other religions. As an obvious example, could we really say that Jews and Muslims would have freedom of religion if they were required to show same respect to images of Jesus that Christians have? Would Christians and Muslims really have freedom of their religion if they were required to wear yarmulkes? Would Christians and Jews have freedom of religion if they were required to adhere to Muslim dietary restrictions? Simply pointing out that people have the freedom to pray however they wish is not enough. Forcing people to accept some particular idea or adhere to behavioral standards from someone else’s religion means that their religious freedom is being infringed upon. Freedom from religion does not mean, as some mistakenly seem to claim, being free from seeing religion in society. No one has the right not to see churches, religious expression, and other examples of religious belief in our nation — and those who advocate freedom of religion do not claim otherwise. What freedom from religion does mean, however, is the freedom from the rules and dogmas of other people’s religious beliefs so that we can be free to follow the demands of our own conscience, whether they take a religious form or not. Thus, we have both freedom of religion and freedom from religion because they are two sides of the same coin. Interestingly, the misunderstandings here can be found in many other myths, misconceptions and misunderstandings as well. Many people don’t realize — or don’t care — that real religious liberty must exist for everyone, not just for themselves. It’s no coincidence that people who object to the principle of “freedom from religion” are adherents of religious groups whose doctrines or standards would be the ones enforced by the state. Since they already voluntarily accept these doctrines or standards, they don’t expect to experience any conflicts with state enforcement or endorsement. What we have, then, is a failure of moral imagination: these people are unable to really imagine themselves in the shoes of religious minorities who don’t voluntarily accept these doctrines or standards and, hence, experience an infringement on their religious liberties through state enforcement or endorsement. That, or they simply don’t care what religious minorities experience because they think they have the One True Religion.

Freedom From Religion vs. Freedom of Religion Myth: You Have Freedom Of, not Freedom From Religion?

[Whilletal]

Quote by: Sonart . No one's suggesting disallowing anyone the right to pray, Whilletal. Individual players can pray till they're blue in the face. They can pray before and after every play for all I care. You just can't, in a government funded, compulsory public school, tell everyone to join in. .

I did not read anything in the article that said he forced players to join in. In this article it states that it was a student initiated prayer.

The Rutherford Institute - Press Releases

And it seems to me that it is a case of disallowing the coach the right to pray. And apparently they are not allowed to pray before or after plays either. Honestly its not about a requirement of prayer its about praying at all. I just don't see why its a problem. If you are Jewish say a prayer from Torah, if your Buddhist say a chant etc.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Isherwood Do you disagree with the following? Freedom From Religion vs. Freedom of Religion Myth: You Have Freedom Of, not Freedom From Religion?

Yes, I disagree. While one has the right not to adhere to a religious faith, one does not have the right to not be exposed to people publicly expressing their faith.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Whilletal I did not read anything in the article that said he forced players to join in. In this article it states that it was a student initiated prayer. The Rutherford Institute - Press Releases And it seems to me that it is a case of disallowing the coach the right to pray. And apparently they are not allowed to pray before or after plays either. Honestly its not about a requirement of prayer its about praying at all. I just don't see why its a problem. If you are Jewish say a prayer from Torah, if your Buddhist say a chant etc.

The problem here is that this is a government representative leading his students in a religious exercise while in his capacity as a government representative. It would be different if he, as an ordinary citizen (which he is when he is not acting in his capacity as a government representative) led a bunch of kids in prayer during an event that had nothing whatsoever to do with the school.

[Mick Jagger]

Quote by: Chancellor Yes, I disagree. While one has the right not to adhere to a religious faith, one does not have the right to not be exposed to people publicly expressing their faith.

One has a right to no civil authority over his religion. The coach violated that right.

[Mick Jagger]

Quote by: Whilletal I did not read anything in the article that said he forced players to join in.

Where did you get the silly idea that the Constitution grants members of the government an advisory trust with regard to religion?

In this article it states that it was a student initiated prayer.

The Court found that,

Borden "said the prayer prior to the first pre-game dinner of the 2003, 2004, and 2005 seasons. For the subsequent weeks of those seasons, Borden asked those attending the dinner to “please stand,” and chose a senior player to say a prayer,....... Borden led his team in a prayer immediately before the game. Prior to taking the field, Borden and his assistant coaches asked the players to take a knee in the locker room. The team gathered in front of the chalkboard or dry erase board on one knee, and at that time, Borden discussed the tactics and strategy for that particular game. Following that discussion, Borden led the team in a prayer.
http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/063890p.pdf

[Jack]

Quote by: Chancellor Yes, I disagree. While one has the right not to adhere to a religious faith, one does not have the right to not be exposed to people publicly expressing their faith.

The article addresses that: "Freedom from religion does not mean, as some mistakenly seem to claim, being free from seeing religion in society. No one has the right not to see churches, religious expression, and other examples of religious belief in our nation — and those who advocate freedom of religion do not claim otherwise."

[caphis]

Quote by: Mick Jagger Where did you get the silly idea that the Constitution grants members of the government an advisory trust with regard to religion?

I see nothing to indicate that he was being advisory in the slightest. Like I said, I have no problem if it's entirely voluntary and no coercion or authority is implied.

The Court found that,

The only real problem I have as it was described is

Borden asked those attending the dinner to “please stand,” and chose a senior player to say a prayer [...] Following that discussion, Borden led the team in a prayer

I don't have any inherent problem with Borden leading the prayer, as long as, again, it was an entirely voluntary exercise. I can't tell from the passage if the entire team attended the dinner and was asked to pray; if so, then boo on him.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Mick Jagger One has a right to no civil authority over his religion. The coach violated that right.

Well, as I said in the post following the one to which you responded...

The problem here is that this is a government representative leading his students in a religious exercise while in his capacity as a government representative. It would be different if he, as an ordinary citizen (which he is when he is not acting in his capacity as a government representative) led a bunch of kids in prayer during an event that had nothing whatsoever to do with the school.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Isherwood The article addresses that: "Freedom from religion does not mean, as some mistakenly seem to claim, being free from seeing religion in society. No one has the right not to see churches, religious expression, and other examples of religious belief in our nation — and those who advocate freedom of religion do not claim otherwise."

Tell that to certain members of Volconvo and others who so damned rabidly object to any public expression of religion whatsoever! So, don't give me this crap about how freedom from religion doesn't mean being free from seeing religion in society.

[Mick Jagger]

Quote by: caphis I see nothing to indicate that he was being advisory in the slightest.

Advising someone to “please stand” for prayer is advising that person that he has a duty to pray.

[caphis]

Quote by: Mick Jagger Advising someone to “please stand” for prayer is advising that person that he has a duty to pray.

And, like I said,

Quote by: me I can't tell from the passage if the entire team attended the dinner and was asked to pray; if so, then boo on him.

If the dinner was composed only of those players who had expressed interest in praying, I'm not calling foul.

[Mick Jagger]

Quote by: caphis If the dinner was composed only of those players who had expressed interest in praying, I'm not calling foul.

From the Court's Opinion:

On September 26, 2005, Jo Ann Magistro, the
Superintendent of the East Brunswick School District (“School
District”), received a complaint from a parent about the prayer
at the team dinner. The parent told Magistro that she thought it
was inappropriate that Borden requested that everyone stand for
the prayer and that he bowed his head during the prayer. Over
the course of that week, two other parents complained to
Magistro about the prayer. One of the complaining parents had
a son on the team, and the parent told Magistro that her son felt
uncomfortable during the prayer and feared that the coach would
select him to say the prayer....

[caphis]

Quote by: Mick Jagger From the Court's Opinion: On September 26, 2005, Jo Ann Magistro, the Superintendent of the East Brunswick School District (“School District”), received a complaint from a parent about the prayer at the team dinner. The parent told Magistro that she thought it was inappropriate that Borden requested that everyone stand for the prayer and that he bowed his head during the prayer. Over the course of that week, two other parents complained to Magistro about the prayer. One of the complaining parents had a son on the team, and the parent told Magistro that her son felt uncomfortable during the prayer and feared that the coach would select him to say the prayer....

Okay, then, it sounds like it was the entire team. In that case, then yes, I can fault Borden for initiating prayer at the dinner.

[Jack]

don't give me this crap about how freedom from religion doesn't mean being free from seeing religion in society.

My wishing religion would follow throwing salt over your shoulder into the book of forgotten superstitions hardly equates with making an effort to stifle religious expression. The author of that article was quite clear, and I haven't seen any rebuttal to his points.

BTW-I'm not giving you any crap. I'm posting for everyone here. You are all free to take my crap, but I don't wish to make the effort to actually give it to you.