Hillary for President

[grandpa]

Quote by: Winter wind 1) she isn't a socialist. She doesn't advocate government control of all industries, or even many of them.

She is no socialist. Of course, I challenge your definition. I fail to connect state power with genuine workers control (which, to my understanding, is a basic socialist principle).

Grandpa h.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Generally socialism is assumed to be leftist centralized control of industries in general, though, of course, ideaologically it should be under the workers' control, socialism is easier to throw at american politicians when they want govt. in the economy.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Generally socialism is assumed to be leftist centralized control of industries in general, though, of course, ideaologically it should be under the workers' control, socialism is easier to throw at american politicians when they want govt. in the economy.

It is easier, but less accurate. But let's say the Democratic Party really was like, say, the Communist Party. It's still likely that state communist arrangements would bring workers into conflict, not only with the "CP" but with their very own supposed ideals. It wouldn't make much sense from any perspective, so it makes sense to call Democrats something other than "socialists" or "commies." I'm not sure what the term would be, other than "democrat." Maybe liars and crooks? Again, I don't know.

Grandpa h.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: grandpa She is no socialist. Of course, I challenge your definition. I fail to connect state power with genuine workers control (which, to my understanding, is a basic socialist principle).

I stand corrected. But we agree she isn't a socialist.

[xyzer]

If we concede that health care is a private industry in the USA then isn't the so called 'affordable' health care that Hillary wants to inflict on us an attempt to socialize medicine? Doesn't it mandate that all of us join under threat of government garnishment of our wages if we dont?

Agree gandpa full socialism is when a country controls most,or all, of the industries, but healthcare is only a start? Once that is achieved why can't government control be instituted in other industries, even sports? All the socialist minded presiident needs is an excuse? In this case Clinton calls it affordable health care, Suggesting that our system is only affordable to a few.

Lets face it, is anyone turned away from emergency care because they cant afford it? Even illegals get free emergency care? How many are complaining about the high premium costs of medical insurance? Get real we have been warned over and over again that certain related entitlements like Medicare(healthcare) social security are going to run in the red unless something is done about them, now Hillary wants to add another entitlement to the mix? How do we pay for this?

Add in reality if medical care becomes cheaper and or even free we will use it more and the quality will erode. Bubba's got a boil on his ass, take him to the docter? Doctors will be forced into accepting fees, lines will grow longer and waits for surgery longer! That's what happened in England and Canada?

I'm not saying that some sort of government funded help cannot ever be used for those in very expensive medical procedures certified necessary by medical experts. What I am saying is the matter should be approached very carefully because in my estimation we are tinkering with the fastest, most efficient system in the world. I don't think we should screw it up for political purposes.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: xyzers If we concede that health care is a private industry in the USA then isn't the so called 'affordable' health care that Hillary wants to inflict on us an attempt to socialize medicine? Doesn't it mandate that all of us join under threat of government garnishment of our wages if we dont?

They have "socialized medicine" in most other developed countries in the world, are they all socialist states? Are their leaders socialist?

Just cause you give it the "red scare" label, doesn't make it a communist ideal.

Again in the words of Deng Xiaoping "It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, only that it catches mice". I honestly couldn't care less if it were democratic, socialist, or Wookie, as long as it works, I don't care.

Lets face it, is anyone turned away from emergency care because they cant afford it?

You've never been to California? Homeless people are tossed out all the time (even when they have broken bones, etc). It's because these hospitals can't pay all these people.

How many are complaining about the high premium costs of medical insurance?

The ones with cancer, and other persistent diseases.

Add in reality if medical care becomes cheaper and or even free we will use it more and the quality will erode. Bubba's got a boil on his ass, take him to the docter?

The reason prices are inflated aren't because of quality reasons, but because it is so lucrative to sue doctors for malpractice, that the price of everything they do is insane.

Doctors will be forced into accepting fees, lines will grow longer and waits for surgery longer! That's what happened in England and Canada?

And yet they are much healthier countries then the United States.

Also, the lines will be longer, but for specialty operations (eye operations and such things) not for general care (much shorter in fact). Doctors forced into accepting fees? what?

Yet, this isn't a debate about health care, this is a debate about Hillary, and if you disagree with her approach to health care then say so, but don't call her a socialist without good reason.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: grandpa She is no socialist. Of course, I challenge your definition. I fail to connect state power with genuine workers control (which, to my understanding, is a basic socialist principle). Grandpa h.

If getting a living wage and having a safe working environment is socialism, then that is one principle worth having in our culture.

So let's make it also a democratic prinicple.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: xyzer If we concede that health care is a private industry in the USA then isn't the so called 'affordable' health care that Hillary wants to inflict on us an attempt to socialize medicine? Doesn't it mandate that all of us join under threat of government garnishment of our wages if we dont? Agree gandpa full socialism is when a country controls most,or all, of the industries, but healthcare is only a start? Once that is achieved why can't government control be instituted in other industries, even sports? All the socialist minded presiident needs is an excuse? In this case Clinton calls it affordable health care, Suggesting that our system is only affordable to a few. Lets face it, is anyone turned away from emergency care because they cant afford it? Even illegals get free emergency care? How many are complaining about the high premium costs of medical insurance? Get real we have been warned over and over again that certain related entitlements like Medicare(healthcare) social security are going to run in the red unless something is done about them, now Hillary wants to add another entitlement to the mix? How do we pay for this? Add in reality if medical care becomes cheaper and or even free we will use it more and the quality will erode. Bubba's got a boil on his ass, take him to the docter? Doctors will be forced into accepting fees, lines will grow longer and waits for surgery longer! That's what happened in England and Canada? I'm not saying that some sort of government funded help cannot ever be used for those in very expensive medical procedures certified necessary by medical experts. What I am saying is the matter should be approached very carefully because in my estimation we are tinkering with the fastest, most efficient system in the world. I don't think we should screw it up for political purposes.

Every member of Congress has already voted to adopt that policy for their self, they all use the same kind of health care insurance as what Hillary is advocating. So why should the rest of us Americans be denied the same plan being used by everyone in Congress and the Senate? All Republicans in Congress already have signed on to that program being funded by our taxes, which inclued their family members.

If it works for Congress it can work for everyone else. People like John McCain and Ron Paul are already covered by the plan that Hillary is proposing for everyone in the USA.

Point being - how can Congress debate the plan if they are using it already?

Many hospitals not backed by a major religion and strong charity donations have discontinued their emergency rooms. Because they cannot afford to keep them going because doctors want a decent pay for thier work and state of the art equipment is expensive. Cutting back the number of nurses in a hospital puts even the paying people in jepardy.
The Hillary plan will solve those budget probems in the medical industry.
As many hospitials discontinue their emergency rooms that causes an overflow at hospitals that do have such options, creating long waiting times at such places. Many times a person must wait as long as two days just to get checked out if the receptionist puts them on the low-emergency status list. While gang members that were shot duing a gang battle are rushed right in.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Technosoul If getting a living wage and having a safe working environment is socialism, then that is one principle worth having in our culture. So let's make it also a democratic prinicple.

First of all, that's the kind of crap democrats have been guaranteeing for years, but nearly all of the power is going into elite corporate hands. If you have Hillary, you have corporate capitalism or fascism (or, more accurately, a combination of both).

Let's look at the options the two party's give us regarding healthcare:

1. "Let's give better care to the rich, but let's snip out the
other groups."

2. "Let's force everyone to pay for healthcare."

Neither of these are top notch, as far as I'm concerned.

Grandpa h.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: grandpa First of all, that's the kind of crap democrats have been guaranteeing for years, but nearly all of the power is going into elite corporate hands. If you have Hillary, you have corporate capitalism or fascism (or, more accurately, a combination of both). Let's look at the options the two party's give us regarding healthcare: 1. "Let's give better care to the rich, but let's snip out the other groups." 2. "Let's force everyone to pay for healthcare." Neither of these are top notch, as far as I'm concerned. Grandpa h.

And so what is your middle-road or alternative health care idea that you would claim is "top notch"?

Do you really think that your faultless plan is possible? What political name would you use for your idea of that top notch program?

The Hillary health plan is not really about trying to establish some sort of poltical idealogy, it is about making sure that people can have health care services that can fit into the family budgets. Name calling in my opinion is just a distraction from forming a government that represents compassion in action. The medical industry should have the ability to offer compassion without going bankrupt, or without making too much profit like vultures feeding off the degeneration of the middle class.

We should not force poor people to remian unhealthy because that is also a form or control over the economy and the people subjected to our current economical status, which status is likewise degenerating. It is important to make the economics relative to health care healthy in order to insure that the population as a whole can be healthy. Sick people are not the best resource for manning our potential work force once we get back on top economically.

[xyzer]

I still wonder who is going to pay for it? Adding entitlements costs money. One can't deny that when the government replaces private enterprise the service erodes. Simple logic... bureaucrats aren't pushed to improve and maintain excellence? Competition breeds improvement.
I've pointed up the waiting time and rush to go to the doctor with minor ailments is increased in England and Canada.under a socialized system?.
Whats this utter crap about our system forcing poor people to be unhealthy? Nonsense! Give me some general examples of people being turned away from emergency care? Have you forgotten Medicaid?

grandpa I don't know how corporate facism relates to Healthcare? I think most of the larger corps and a good percent of the smaller ones in the USA pay for their employees basic heaslthcare? Doesn't Medicaid pay for that of the poorer populations? Are we saying that non of us should pay for our Healthcare or suscribe to a insurance company ? Let the government do it?

winterwind..I suggest you come down off the Peak and breath more dense air..Ride the ferry over to Kowloon..

Again in the words of Deng Xiaoping "It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, only that it catches mice". I honestly couldn't care less if it were democratic, socialist, or Wookie, as long as it works, I don't care.

I do care! I'm proud of our system! Lets compare it to the shabby healthcare in China?
If you are an American citizen you would be concerned at any changes to the basic tenents of this country. Free enterprise and a relatively unfettered syatem which adheres to the IX and X Amendments. I cant find anything in the US Constitution that mandates Federalizing Health care? Augmenting it, maybe?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Technosoul And so what is your middle-road or alternative health care idea that you would claim is "top notch"? Do you really think that your faultless plan is possible?

It's not that my wishes are unable to be complied with, but it would mean mass organization challenging both insurance companies (privatization and the profit motive) and the principles of coerced care (taxation).

Clinging to the status quo seems contrary to the basic instinct of self-preservation. Why buy into the same lies the democrats have been telling for years, especially when Hillary has been bought by big insurance companies?

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: xyzer I still wonder who is going to pay for it? Adding entitlements costs money.

A lot of that money will no doubt go to the insurance companies, who no doubt could still deny care anyway. However, the idea that no one is entitled to quality healthcare is sort of absurd. It defies the very point of having healthcare, or a society with related institutions. If they are not going to help you, why even have them around soaking up resources, money, training, etc.?

Grandpa h.

[GHook93]

Well it is do or die for her now. Even if she is victorious today its still an uphill battle for her.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: xyzer Kowloon..

Now why would I want to go all the way over there (I live in Tai Tam)?

I do care! I'm proud of our system! Lets compare it to the shabby healthcare in China?

The Chinese government's focus is on the economy. It's political culture revolves around sacrifice for the whole.

The American government's focus is on civil society. It's political culture revolves around fear of too much power in one spot.

This makes the American government more suited for creating a medical care system then China. Socialism has nothing to do with it. (In fact, economically, China is much more a capitalist state then most).

Free enterprise and a relatively unfettered syatem which adheres to the IX and X Amendments. I cant find anything in the US Constitution that mandates Federalizing Health care? Augmenting it, maybe?

General welfare clause is enough.
And America's health care system is worse of then most countries. Sure we have the highest technology and quality, but since people can't pay for the astronomically priced operations...what difference does it make?

Number one cause of bankruptcy in America is what?

[Matt]

Two words....


GO HILLARY!

[Anmon]

lol she's dead meat, Obama is going to wipe the floor with her.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Anmon lol she's dead meat, Obama is going to wipe the floor with her.

That could be the case; however, she is only 148 delegates behind Obama . PA alone will dish out 188 delegates, with a landslide she could potential come out in the lead. The polls are showing her with a nice lead in PA. At the very least make a significant dent into Obama's lead. After that she is moving into a 85% or great white (non-latino) dominated states. We still haven't seen how the Wright controversy will effect Obama. So far race hadn't been an issue.

D's say Clinton should leave the race are A$$es

In one hour the media (as will you) might be singing a different toon! The only real reason I want her to do well is to keep up the inter-party negativity. Both are unacceptable socialist to me. However, as a person I prefer Obama!

[Technosoul]

Well, Hillary won the Penn Primary and that is good news and shows that the Democrats should go for her if they want to defeat McCain who is gaining strong support among Republicans.

The phoney "socialist" name calling and other dirty poltics being directed at her will not knock her out of the ring - ether.

She won the important votes in the middle ground blue collar zones of Penn and that is what counts the most,

It is true that Obama won the areas dominated by black voters, that is to be expected. But if he was not on the ticket they would vote for Hillary over McCain because they know that Hillary is and was always in touch with their concerns and dreams.

The new frist time voters, the young people, have shifted from Ron Paul to Obama because of their views for radical change (or the hope of such a change), but if Clinton is nominated by the Super Deligates then they would still most likely go for Hillary because she offers a better kind of change then what McCain is offering.

She set the agenda for the Democratic platform, the ending of the war in Iraq, the idea of creating alternative fuels and ending polution. the dealing with health care, and with the economical ills of our country. Where as Obama more or less adopted her ideas in his speech making and presented them in a more "inspirational" manner.

At this moment with only a small persent of the Penn count in, she is ahead by 7 points, she could end up with 10 points before the counting is completed I would speculate.

Penn will be a "must win" state when Hillary must compete with McCain also.

[Matt]

Quote by: Anmon lol she's dead meat, Obama is going to wipe the floor with her.

She won today.