McCain's citizenship is in question.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Technosoul It sounds like we have no absolute guidelines for citizenship at an international level.

We do not.

And why should we? What is more important to a country's soveriegnty than allowing it to define, on its own, who is and is not a citizen?

Are you arguing that other countries should get to dictate "guidelines" for what an American citizen is???????

Heck, the people who wrote the Consitution were not even legal citizens based on birth rights, only Native Americans could have become our President legally.

Incorrect. Go back and read the Constitution again.

"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" can become President.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: tivodan1116 We do not. And why should we? What is more important to a country's soveriegnty than allowing it to define, on its own, who is and is not a citizen? Are you arguing that other countries should get to dictate "guidelines" for what an American citizen is??????? Incorrect. Go back and read the Constitution again. "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" can become President.

Okay then, every time that Congress makes an emendment or each time the Court makes a new kind of interpretation about the meaning of the Consitution, and each time those changes are adopted, then everyone on this soil, should automatically become a new citizen.

What if McCain become President and Panama then made claim of him as their citizen and demanded that be returned to Panama for the crime of not paying taxes in Panama all his working life.

[guitars_are_fly]

Quote by: Technosoul What if McCain become President and Panama then made claim of him as their citizen and demanded that be returned to Panama for the crime of not paying taxes in Panama all his working life.

Well, John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which, at the time, was a territory of the United States. If he had been born at Guantanamo, he would still be a citizen of the United States. It's US soil, even if its not part of the contiguous states. In that sense, he wasn't born in Panama. He was born in a 533-square mile stretch of land owned by the United States, that just happened to be in Panama. It was still US soil.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Technosoul Okay then, every time that Congress makes an emendment or each time the Court makes a new kind of interpretation about the meaning of the Consitution, and each time those changes are adopted, then everyone on this soil, should automatically become a new citizen.

Why? I don't understand your reasoning here.

What if McCain become President and Panama then made claim of him as their citizen and demanded that be returned to Panama for the crime of not paying taxes in Panama all his working life.

That would be between him and Panama. I should think that Presidential candidates are vetted well enough that this sort of thing would not happen. As I have said repeatedly, the location of his birth is a complete, 100%, absolute non-issue.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: guitars_are_fly Well, John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which, at the time, was a territory of the United States. If he had been born at Guantanamo, he would still be a citizen of the United States. It's US soil, even if its not part of the contiguous states. In that sense, he wasn't born in Panama. He was born in a 533-square mile stretch of land owned by the United States, that just happened to be in Panama. It was still US soil.

Yeah but that treaty is no longer in effect and the Canal Zone is not USA terrirory at this time. He waited too long to be Presisent? Having a President who's birth place is now under Commie (China's) control is
putting up a lot of red flags at the Secutiry Department.

Ha! This post has got to be in the top five of my most dumbest repleys.

[Toyotech]

I can't believe that there are people asking the question STILL... and I can't believe that there are seemingly intelligent and reasonable people giving them the time of day.

[guitars_are_fly]

Quote by: Toyotech I can't believe that there are people asking the question STILL... and I can't believe that there are seemingly intelligent and reasonable people giving them the time of day.

"Seemingly intelligent"? Hah -- what's that supposed to mean?


The guy posed a question and was prepared to deal with the responses. (Even if his arguments contain little more than logical fallacies, factual innacuracies, ignorance of legal processes, and all around buzz-word mumbo-jumbo.) I do find it disturbing that people are so desperate to keep the "bad guys" out of the White House that they'd resort to renouncing his citizenship. That's little better than the people who call Obama a terrorist because his middle name is Hussein, and his last name rhymes with "Osama," and he's a Socialist.

Although all that's stuff's true.

[BobbyO]

[

QUOTE=Toyotech;492716]I can't believe that there are people asking the question STILL... and I can't believe that there are seemingly intelligent and reasonable people giving them the time of day.

[/quote]

The reason why is because it is a fascinating Constutional question. The document does not require a president simply to be a "citizen" but rather a "natural born citizen." That is why a Schwartenegger or Kissinger could never serve. They are American citizens, but not "natural born."

Being born in the canal zone certainly made McCain a citizen, but does it make him a "natural born" citizen? The canal zone was not American territory. It always was legally the property of Panama.

[Anmon]

I have heard Schwarzenegger is involved with groups trying to bend the rule in the constitution so that he can be elligable to run for President, you can be sure he will not oppose McCain being born in Panama, that guy in California is just itching to have a crack at the white house one day.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon I have heard Schwarzenegger is involved with groups trying to bend the rule in the constitution so that he can be elligable to run for President, you can be sure he will not oppose McCain being born in Panama, that guy in California is just itching to have a crack at the white house one day.

If he ever reigns over the world (which I assume is his ambition), it'll be one of the stupidest developments ever.

Grandpa h.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: BobbyO The reason why is because it is a fascinating Constutional question.

No, it isn't. It may have been a long time ago, but it is completely settled now and was completely settled by anyone who did 30 seconds of research.

Being born in the canal zone certainly made McCain a citizen, but does it make him a "natural born" citizen?

Yes. It does.

The canal zone was not American territory. It always was legally the property of Panama.

100% irrelevant. McCain's parents were citizens, therefore he was a citizen at birth regardless of where in the world he was born, therefore he was a "natural born" citizen - i.e. a citizen at birth.

Two ways to be a citizen at birth (natural born citizen):
1) Be born on American soil

OR

2) Be born of American parents.

Quote by: Anmon I have heard Schwarzenegger is involved with groups trying to bend the rule in the constitution so that he can be elligable to run for President,

Not bend, amend:
USATODAY.com - Should the Constitution be amended for Arnold?

What a bunch of dopes our politicians are.

[Anmon]

Quote by: grandpa If he ever reigns over the world (which I assume is his ambition), it'll be one of the stupidest developments ever. Grandpa h.

Why not? Hollywood actors have been president before, like Ronnie.
Cant you just picture him saying 'I'll be back!' when he runs for his second term?
Or threatening some middle eastern terrorists with 'maximum collateral damage' on the news?
He would be a ratings winner.
Arnie could be the most popular president ever, all he needs is the usual coaching from the many professional staff at hand on what to say and what not to, and the CIA can continue to run America as usual, the president is just a puppet figure anyway.

[Technosoul]

Well, McCain should show us his green card before we let him have that job. I am not sure if we should outsource that job to someone who was born in Panama when we have canidates who were born in the USA who can fill the positition.

We want a President that was made in the USA and not one made someplace else.

Hillary is the only All American canidate because Obama spent much of his youth in another country at a islamic school.

This does not mean that they are not all good people or that they are not pro-America, it is simply of matter of outsoucing and importing rather then sticking to a unblinking interpretation of our founding documents.

[Anmon]

Like America is going to elect either a female or a black man to President, sorry if that sounded racist or sexist, I'm not myself advocating against these canditates because of sex or race, but thats the cold hard truth.

McCain has got it in the bag, Hillary is a fem nut, part of the rabid psychotic male hating socialist sisterhood, so millions of emasculated men will see an ideal opportunity to give feminism a well deserved good hard kick in the guts, and one back for the brotherhood by simply not voting for her.
Obama black, muslim yep hes a shoo in lol.

[Matt W]

Obama's a Christian, as has been proven many times over. And Techno, did you even read this bit?

Quote by: Tivodan 100% irrelevant. McCain's parents were citizens, therefore he was a citizen at birth regardless of where in the world he was born, therefore he was a "natural born" citizen - i.e. a citizen at birth. Two ways to be a citizen at birth (natural born citizen): 1) Be born on American soil OR 2) Be born of American parents.

Are you genuinely claiming that the children of all US personnel stationed abroad aren't American?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon Why not? Hollywood actors have been president before, like Ronnie.

If he'd be anything like "Ronnie," it'd only justify my statement.

Grandpa h.

[Anmon]

Quote by: grandpa If he'd be anything like "Ronnie," it'd only justify my statement. Grandpa h.

Indeed, how so?

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Matt W Are you genuinely claiming that the children of all US personnel stationed abroad aren't American?

No, I'm claiming, correctly, that they are.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Technosoul Well, McCain should show us his green card before we let him have that job. I am not sure if we should outsource that job to someone who was born in Panama when we have canidates who were born in the USA who can fill the positition. We want a President that was made in the USA and not one made someplace else. Hillary is the only All American canidate because Obama spent much of his youth in another country at a islamic school. This does not mean that they are not all good people or that they are not pro-America, it is simply of matter of outsoucing and importing rather then sticking to a unblinking interpretation of our founding documents.

Of course I must playing dirty politics. But I know that you should know that McCain is as American as apple pie on a Sunday afternoon.

I really could care less if he was in Panama or not, I just thought it would be fun to compare "made in the USA" with his situation. But we should never doubt that he is an all American dude and so let the flags fly in his honor. He deserves it, he paid his dues as a POW, he has spent years in Washington, standing in the background, going on TV shows to promote those things he thinks is best for our country. Now it is his time to be in the limelight. If he even gets some action following how Bush goofed up the Republican image he has a least done something for the good of his party. They are in grave need of a face lift right now.

I do not agree with his platform or most of his ideas, and I think he has been too influenced by the military to comprehend the more peaceful avenues of leadership relative to global policy making. That said and done. He is still as much of an American as any other canidate.

Well, it has been fun debating my self.

[Matt W]

Quote by: tivodan1116 No, I'm claiming, correctly, that they are.

Tivodan - I was actually addressing that to Technosoul.

Quote by: Techno Well, it has been fun debating my self.

The key thing here, Techno, is the idea that you actually acknowledge & respond to questions poised at you...