Tibet is, was, and will always be part of China?

[fushigi]

My Chinese friends are going nutty over the riots in Tibet. I've never seen them more nationalist. Now a debate is storming here about China's claim to Tibet. I just watched this video on YouTube and am wondering if it's compelling to people here:

Tibet

fushigi

[lsbskins1]

No, it holds no water with me. The problem is that the PRC is full of crap and does not want to admit the real problem. The real problem is that they do not just want to maintain the historic ties between Tibet and China, nor do they want to bring freedom and progress to a region of their own land. They want to dominate and eliminate all things Tibetan. Don't believe me? Check this out (Tibet): - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In 2005, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao's offered to hold talks with the 14th Dalai Lama on the Tibet issue, provided he dropped the demand for independence. The Dalai Lama said in an interview with the South China Morning Post "We are willing to be part of the People's Republic of China, to have it govern and guarantee to preserve our Tibetan culture, spirituality and our environment." He had already said he would accept Chinese sovereignty over Tibet but insisted on real autonomy over its religious and cultural life. The Tibetan government-in-exile called on the Chinese government to respond.[85] The move was seen to be unpopular with some Tibetans in exile, particularly among the younger generation.[85]

In January 2007 the Dalai Lama, in an interview on a private television channel, said "What we demand from the Chinese authority is more autonomy for Tibetans to protect their culture." He added that he had told the Tibetan people not to think in terms of history and to accept Tibet as a part of China.[86]"

When China stops pratteling on about how Tibet and China are "one" (even though historically they have been seperated and joined and separated and joined more often than Britney Spears has been to rehab or refused to go to court) and steps up and accepts the fact that a real compromise has been offered and admits that what they really want is to dominate and culturally and religiously trample the rights Tibetans should enjoy, then they can talk. Until then they need to get out and STFU!

[The Decider]

Quote by: lsbskins1 No, it holds no water with me. The problem is that the PRC is full of crap and does not want to admit the real problem. The real problem is that they do not just want to maintain the historic ties between Tibet and China, nor do they want to bring freedom and progress to a region of their own land. They want to dominate and eliminate all things Tibetan. Don't believe me? Check this out (Tibet): - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think I read this story before under another title----"Manifest Destiny." Unfortunately, Americans are not the ideal critics on matters of cultural genocide and territorial acquisition of weaker neighbors. It doesn't exonerate the Chinese at all, but they have company in the imperialism business.

[lsbskins1]

Though I may agree that the US and other western powers have plenty to be ashamed of in the past and in current affairs, that still does not alter the fact that the PRC is not a benevelant force in Tibet. And nobody's PR piece makes that fact change.

[The Decider]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Though I may agree that the US and other western powers have plenty to be ashamed of in the past and in current affairs, that still does not alter the fact that the PRC is not a benevelant force in Tibet. And nobody's PR piece makes that fact change.

I agree, that's why I said America's case "does not exonerate China." However, it does give China ammunition to resist the moral outrage of nations with territories gained through imperial conquest and genocide. Tibet is China's moral equivalent of the American West (including Hawaii).

[lsbskins1]

The difference, of course, is that I doubt Utah would take autonomy now...not even the Utes. It is something you can see as equal only if you want to see it that way. The US is not seeking new Native American's to dominate and I would be more than willing to call us dumb-ass for the mess in Iraq. And if we were trying to take back some ceeded section of Mexico and were insisting that they stip being Catholic and never ever wear Mexican style dress or other such nonsense...but this is all just a way for someone to blame their bad behavior on someone's bad behavior.

[phoenix_fire]

I have a tendency to be critical of most things coming out of China. Considering, of course, that the government only lets them get the information they want them to see and censors everything that might embarrass them. The Chinese Communist Party propaganda machine is one to rival that of Nazi Germany.

[grandpa]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I have a tendency to be critical of most things coming out of China. Considering, of course, that the government only lets them get the information they want them to see and censors everything that might embarrass them.

They do have a monstrous government, no doubt about it.

Martin Jacques recently noted that "events in Tibet have served to expose the achilles heel
of modern China: its inability to recognise and respect ethnic
difference within its own borders. As it emerges as a major global
player in a world characterised by exactly such ethnic diversity, this
seems destined to cast China in a rather more negative light, not
least in the developing world."

Martin Jacques: Spotlight on grievance | Comment is free | The Guardian

Here's what I would do with the Tibetans and Taiwanese -- leave them alone! You don't have to think hard to see why it's a good idea, but authoritarians in China (and elsewhere, of course) simply don't want people to be relatively independent. This is true for China, and "for the security of the United States." They just have to be able to push people around.

Grandpa h.

[孙宇清]

The Dalai Lam have said his government-in-exile will make it clear that when Tibet is allowed autonomy and it is peaceful and stable, it could be united with China and prosper.

The CCP dare not talk with the Dalai Lama,for that will incur attention on the autarchic system!

[grandpa]

Quote by: 孙宇清 The Dalai Lam have said his government-in-exile will make it clear that when Tibet is allowed autonomy and it is peaceful and stable, it could be united with China and prosper. The CCP dare not talk with the Dalai Lama,for that will incur attention on the autarchic system!

The government in the PRC is denying basic human
rights to its own people.

A related link:
Canada Tibet Committee

Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Quote by: lsbskins1 The difference, of course, is that I doubt Utah would take autonomy now...not even the Utes. It is something you can see as equal only if you want to see it that way. The US is not seeking new Native American's to dominate and I would be more than willing to call us dumb-ass for the mess in Iraq. And if we were trying to take back some ceeded section of Mexico and were insisting that they stip being Catholic and never ever wear Mexican style dress or other such nonsense...but this is all just a way for someone to blame their bad behavior on someone's bad behavior.

Yes, and unfortunately the Chinese will do just that.

But in the end, historical hypocrisy is not China's trump card in Tibet. The West's hunger for trade is China's best defense--along with all those dollar investments in America. Tibetans are worse off than the Kurds of Turkey and Iran, politically, culturally, and almost every other way. But at least Tibetans have one thing in their favor--most still occupy their homeland in large numbers, unlike the American Indian or native Hawaiians.

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Decider Yes, and unfortunately the Chinese will do just that. But in the end, historical hypocrisy is not China's trump card in Tibet.

China will be wanting to "re-liberate" Vietnam next...who knows?

Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Quote by: grandpa China will be wanting to "re-liberate" Vietnam next...who knows? Grandpa h.

They can try. The Vietnamese have a large army and a history of killing Chinese invaders (American and French ones, too).

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Decider They can try. The Vietnamese have a large army and a history of killing Chinese invaders (American and French ones, too).

The sad thing is: They may actually try. You never know with tyrants. Everything depends on what they
think (to the extent they have their way).

Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Quote by: grandpa The sad thing is: They may actually try. You never know with tyrants. Everything depends on what they think (to the extent they have their way). Grandpa h.

Anything is possible. But I see no reason why China would want to annex Vietnam. It has few of Tibet's valuable natural resources. China's last attempt to "punish" Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia became a nightmare of poor planning and frightening battlefield losses. Vietnam's large population and well-trained military make long-term occupation a non-starter. And lastly, China wants world business. Attacking Vietnam's growing economy would not only anger China's Asian neighbors, it would disrupt an important market for Chinese goods. Even tyrants, at least the Chinese ones, consider the bottom line before declaring war. Tibet is small potatoes; a place the world doesn't trade with and few have ever seen. Sad, but true.

[fushigi]

Has anyone considered that China may actually have a legitimate claim? I mean, Hawaii was only colonized in the late 1800s and incorporated into the US around the same time as Tibet (Tibet was definitely a continuous Chinese colony from at least the 17th century). Would you say Hawaiians have a legitimate claim for independence?

[J. Askiloupos]

The indegenous islanders (if sufficient numbers existed) certainly could, logically, hold forth for independence if they wished it.

Hawaii was most certainly not an American colony in the first place.

Apples and oranges, as it were, Fushigi. They're both fruit, but are otherwise hard to compare to one another.

As to Tibet, the Chinese ought to withdraw their military forces immediately, as they have managed to violate nearly every existing point of human rights in their actions during the riots.

Not that they should be forced to by Team America World Police, obviously, as the U.S. forces already have their collective head in one hornet's nest too many- namely, Iraq.

The best outcome that the Tibetans could possibly hope for would be for their national sovereignty to be raised as a serious issue on the floor of the UN.

[grandpa]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos The indegenous islanders (if sufficient numbers existed) certainly could, logically, hold forth for independence if they wished it. Hawaii was most certainly not an American colony in the first place.

If they wished it, I might respect their wishes. If you look at powerful nations, it's not only stupidity or racism on their part causes some of them to stray into other regions. Often, it's a matter of subjugating others and commandeering their resources.

However, conquerers end up creating their own problems. Obviously, if you're dependent on some central authority and you want to blame any group for society's ills, you might reasonably look to whoever you are under.
After all, you likely didn't even want to be dependent. Of course, it's even more reasonable for those who assume subservience is never in their interest. But, on the side of authority, there is plenty of propaganda to beat back such feelings, as well as actual physical coercion lurking in the background.

Grandpa h.

[GHook93]

Quote by: fushigi Has anyone considered that China may actually have a legitimate claim? I mean, Hawaii was only colonized in the late 1800s and incorporated into the US around the same time as Tibet (Tibet was definitely a continuous Chinese colony from at least the 17th century). Would you say Hawaiians have a legitimate claim for independence?

Hawaii definitely has a claim for independence! They were militarily taken over by whites. They sent a majority over their for the vote to join the union. The difference is the Hawaiians for the most part have accepted it and are a small enough minority in Hawaii that their is no separation movement.

[J. Askiloupos]

Hawaii definitely has a claim for independence!

Unfortunately, it'd be about as ridiculous for Hawaii to claim independence as it would be for Sparta to claim theirs from the rest of Greece.

They've been a part of the general culture for so long, and there's been so much intermixing of the peoples, that it'd be ludicrous for them to make such a claim.

As for Tibet, though, that's another matter- they're very much their own nation in terms of culture and popular demographic.