Are religious holidays unconstitutional?

[Technosoul]

This topic concerns the speration of state and religion.

Should a state run governmental office remain open for business during a religious holiday, such as Easter ro Christmas?

Hou would you interpret the Consitution relative to this topic?

Should schools remain open during a holiday that is set aside for religious purposes? and how about Federal offices and departments?

I thought this would be a debatable question.

[Cephus]

Neither Christmas nor Easter have anything to do with religion these days, they are both entirely secular holidays. It's hard to make a case for Easter being Christian anyhow, considering it's named after a pagan fertility goddess and all of the trappings are pagan in nature. There is nothing whatsoever about Easter that suggests Christianity unless you want to believe in that silly resurrection story. Oh wait, early Christians stole that from the pagan story of Attis so their religion would look better to the pagans. Silly me.

[JaneDoe321]

When I was a kid, I remember a lot of the other kids (like about 80%... lol) getting excused from school to go to church on Ash Wednesday... they usually came back, but I always thought that was curious.

I don't think the whole world should come crashing to a halt to observe one particular religion's religious holidays. That being said, in some (many?) communities, even if "only" the actual celebrants of said religious holiday were off, that would effectively shut down the schools and businesses, etc.

In New Orleans, as an example, the schools were closed on the Monday and Tuesday (and I *think* Ash Wednesday as well, it's been a few years) of Mardi Gras week proper. Reason being, everybody was going to be at the parades anyway, so why bother forcing the issue?

I do find it intellectually annoying, and I would like to be able to have "floating" holidays available to me, so my kids and I could take off Darwin Day and not have to use a vacation day or worry about them being marked truant, but practically speaking, I realize that's unlikely, so I just internally redefine the "big ones" in terms I can tolerate and move on.

I really don't know about Constitutional appropriateness, though. On a "theory" level it seems like it's a violation, but in practical application, I can see how you have to bow to reality.

[Sonart]

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The interesting thing about Christmas is that it (conveniently? considering that no one really knows Christ's DOB) occurs at a time of year that has traditionally been celebrated by many societies across the centuries and around the world... mostly the celebration of renewal at the Winter Solstice.

Christmas as the birth of Christ is meaningless to me, but I do celebrate it as a time of renewel, of celebrating peace, joy and the unity of mankind, and of family love.

Having said that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,..."

That means if Congress -- or State legislatures -- pass laws respecting the establishment of religion as national holidays, it's a clear violation of the Constitution, just as it was in 1863 when Congress passed a law respecting the establishment of religion on our currency, and again in 1868 when Congress passed a law respecting an establishment of religion on our paper currency, and again in 1954 when Congress passed a law respecting the establishment of religion into our public schoolchidren's Pledge of Allegiance, and again in 1957 when Congress passed a law respecting an establishment of religion on our Nation's Motto.


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[ShadowFox]

From what i've heard, though a bit off topic, is that Early christians made the holidays around these times with Pagan like rituals as to avoid persecution from the romans. What i've heard anyway.

[Jack]

Even more basic than holidays, what about the national presumption that stores and government offices should be closed on Sundays? The only thing "special" about Sunday is in its religious affiliation.

[theco805]

I respect and understand the strict view of the Constitution that religious holidays would be considered unconstitutional.

With this in mind though, I think the government should consider how many employees would show up for work on holidays before they try to mandate attendance.

In a manner of efficiency and granting breaks throughout the year to employees, I feel it is right to grant "holidays" off to government employees to do as they please. These holiday are not restricting the behavior of anyone or forcing them to believe/participate in anything they do not want to. The holiday, are however, protecting the interest of the people and government alike by granting days off work to do as the employees please.

[Jack]

There's an injustice done to all of us by the creation of national holidays tied to religious observances. Government offices and many businesses are closed. So you may have those days off, but you can't be very productive.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Isherwood There's an injustice done to all of us by the creation of national holidays tied to religious observances. Government offices and many businesses are closed. So you may have those days off, but you can't be very productive.

Did you ever think that maybe some people don't see it as an "injustice" to have a few days off each year from being "productive"?

[Cephus]

Quote by: Sonart The interesting thing about Christmas is that it (conveniently? considering that no one really knows Christ's DOB) occurs at a time of year that has traditionally been celebrated by many societies across the centuries and around the world... mostly the celebration of renewal at the Winter Solstice.

It's not convenient, it was done purposely. If you read the Gospels, they make it clear that Jesus was supposedly born in late spring or early summer. They simply adopted a Winter Solstice date in 384 A.D. in order to make it more attractive to the pagans they wanted to convert to Christianity.

The same was done with Easter.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Cephus Neither Christmas nor Easter have anything to do with religion these days, they are both entirely secular holidays. It's hard to make a case for Easter being Christian anyhow, considering it's named after a pagan fertility goddess and all of the trappings are pagan in nature. There is nothing whatsoever about Easter that suggests Christianity unless you want to believe in that silly resurrection story. Oh wait, early Christians stole that from the pagan story of Attis so their religion would look better to the pagans. Silly me.

Paganism is a religion and the rule to seperate government from religions would still apply.

What is the point of having a big holliday to honor Santa or some Bunny rabbit? None, that would be like haveing Disney Day as a natonal holiday. Why should we pay for government workers to sit at home eating candy bunnies? A giant waste of taxes.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Sonart . The interesting thing about Christmas is that it (conveniently? considering that no one really knows Christ's DOB) occurs at a time of year that has traditionally been celebrated by many societies across the centuries and around the world... mostly the celebration of renewal at the Winter Solstice. Christmas as the birth of Christ is meaningless to me, but I do celebrate it as a time of renewel, of celebrating peace, joy and the unity of mankind, and of family love. Having said that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,..." That means if Congress -- or State legislatures -- pass laws respecting the establishment of religion as national holidays, it's a clear violation of the Constitution, just as it was in 1863 when Congress passed a law respecting the establishment of religion on our currency, and again in 1868 when Congress passed a law respecting an establishment of religion on our paper currency, and again in 1954 when Congress passed a law respecting the establishment of religion into our public schoolchidren's Pledge of Allegiance, and again in 1957 when Congress passed a law respecting an establishment of religion on our Nation's Motto. .

It might be a national "christian capitalistic" day, allowed because it gets everyone into buying stuff which stemulates the economy. Look at the uproar when it was renamed "X -mass Day". To say it is not Christ Day is fibbing.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Technosoul Paganism is a religion and the rule to seperate government from religions would still apply.

Largely, paganism of this sort is a long-dead religion with few, if any adherents.

What is the point of having a big holliday to honor Santa or some Bunny rabbit? None, that would be like haveing Disney Day as a natonal holiday. Why should we pay for government workers to sit at home eating candy bunnies? A giant waste of taxes.

What's the point of having a day for shooting off fireworks or honoring workers or military service? What's the point of a day sitting around eating turkey? What do we really gain by celebrating a day dedicated to dead Presidents or Martin Luther King?

Anything? Didn't think so.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Isherwood Even more basic than holidays, what about the national presumption that stores and government offices should be closed on Sundays? The only thing "special" about Sunday is in its religious affiliation.

Yes, the "day of rest". Many companies no longer honor that concept, in fact, Jesus was repremanded for breaking that rule.

But on the other hand we cannot discriminate and prevent people from doing their religious rituals if it is an established and time-honored practice. That is where the confusion comes in. They get the day off to have a ritural surronding Jesus or the Sun, put they cannot put up any display about Jesus on government property. Hee hee - you can hang up a image of the Divine Sun and no one would know it was for a religious symbol. Ra. The God Ra is the Sun -- re: Sun Day.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: theco805 I respect and understand the strict view of the Constitution that religious holidays would be considered unconstitutional. With this in mind though, I think the government should consider how many employees would show up for work on holidays before they try to mandate attendance. In a manner of efficiency and granting breaks throughout the year to employees, I feel it is right to grant "holidays" off to government employees to do as they please. These holiday are not restricting the behavior of anyone or forcing them to believe/participate in anything they do not want to. The holiday, are however, protecting the interest of the people and government alike by granting days off work to do as the employees please.

Okay, then we will allow you a 10 min. break - but you better not try to extend the time allowed you.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Cephus Largely, paganism of this sort is a long-dead religion with few, if any adherents. What's the point of having a day for shooting off fireworks or honoring workers or military service? What's the point of a day sitting around eating turkey? What do we really gain by celebrating a day dedicated to dead Presidents or Martin Luther King? Anything? Didn't think so.

I am one of the few and any minority has equality with a majority. It is important to ask the Sun to deliver us back into springtime and summer, otherwise we could end up in a long and cold ice age. So far the pagans have saved you all from such an ice age via their yearly ritual. Better safe then sorry. Now we have started up our world wide "rain dance day" to help baptise the earth in water and rain to fight polution and how that effects global warming. (sorry about the big flood back east but it must be done). Good news, the polar caps are gaining back more ice during the past five years. What is your religion doing?

The reason for those holidays is so that people will worship our govenmental ideas in the same manner as we might worship our religious ideas. But they are not religious holidays and so no Consitutional concideration is needed.

[Technosoul]

I propose that we have a holiday called "national insanity day". A day set aside when everyone can act like a nut case.

We deserve it. Too much conformity and we need a break.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Technosoul This topic concerns the speration of state and religion. Should a state run governmental office remain open for business during a religious holiday, such as Easter ro Christmas? Hou would you interpret the Consitution relative to this topic? Should schools remain open during a holiday that is set aside for religious purposes? and how about Federal offices and departments? I thought this would be a debatable question.

Easter is not a federal holiday. As for religious federal holidays such as Thanksgiving and Christmas, I believe they're unconstitutional but the Supreme Court has come up with this silly notion of "ceremonial deism" (The Establishment Clause and Ceremonial Deism) that allows such things as having "In God We Trust" on our money, having holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas, having a chaplain opening up Congressional sessions in prayer or offering religious services to members of Congress, etc.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Chancellor Easter is not a federal holiday. As for religious federal holidays such as Thanksgiving and Christmas, I believe they're unconstitutional but the Supreme Court has come up with this silly notion of "ceremonial deism" (The Establishment Clause and Ceremonial Deism) that allows such things as having "In God We Trust" on our money, having holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas, having a chaplain opening up Congressional sessions in prayer or offering religious services to members of Congress, etc.

Your link provided a very interesting read that is relative to this topic.

I think we should be able to order our own paper money like we order checks form a bank. With our own motto on it and best reflects our own religious belief. As long as that belief is historical in nature and has lost it's meaning through repitition.

I should be able to say "under one sky" instead of saying under one God, when I am doing that pledge. Or "under one Desim".

On my coins I would have inscribed "in tobacco we trust".... that has lost it's meaning and is only based on a long standing habit in society - aka repitition.

But you cannot put "in science we trust" because that belief is not triditional enough and has not lost it's meaning ( not yet... but that might change once we knock it off it's high horse ).

Rember the old song "you are my Ra, my only Ra, please don't take my sunshine away".

Okay, I added God to the song.... so sue me.

[Sonart]

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It's not convenient, it was done purposely. If you read the Gospels, they make it clear that Jesus was supposedly born in late spring or early summer. They simply adopted a Winter Solstice date in 384 A.D. in order to make it more attractive to the pagans they wanted to convert to Christianity. The same was done with Easter.

Yeah, I know. Ya beat me too it... I was going to mention it in response to Halofan's post, that the Byzantine Christians, after the Council Nicaea, and later Roman Christians used the date to appease pagan converts, not the other way around.

Quote by: Technosoul It might be a national "christian capitalistic" day, allowed because it gets everyone into buying stuff which stemulates the economy. Look at the uproar when it was renamed "X -mass Day". To say it is not Christ Day is fibbing.

LOLOL!! Now there's an ironic thought. Following WWII, America became the first economy based on a mega consumer society.

How appropriate for our most beloved national holiday to evolve into a celebration of mindless consumption.

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