Israel/Palestine Solution?

[GHook93]

I know everyone has an opinion on it. The anti-semites usually start with that Israel shouldn't have been crearted. That is moot, since it is created and nothing short of nuking Israel will change that (which would cause Israel to nuke half the Middle East if it came to that). Also a single state seems out of the question, since both sides would more likely kill each other - think Japanese fighting fish when you remove the barrier. Status quo is unacceptable. So here is what I think.

The main stopping blocks are: (1) Refugee situation, (2) Jerusalem/East Jerusalem, (3) The holy sites, (4) the Settlements, (5) Terrorism, (6) Acceptance by the Arab League (something they said they would do) &
(7) Arab Israelis.

(1) Refugee Problem:
The law of return has to be restricted to the future Palestinian state. No rational country would take on millions of self-proclaimed enemies of the state. Israel and the West would compensate these refugees to help them get on their feet.

(2) Jerusalem:
Jerusalem status should be up for a vote. Each section of Jerusalem votes if they want to be part of Jerusalem or Al Quds. I really don't know the demographics of the areas, but I assume the Jews pick Jerusalem and the Arabs will pick Al Quds. Each side compensates the displaced population when the vote results are determined.

(3) Holy sites:
I will admit I don't know all of them. But I assume the dome on the rock mosque will end up in Al Quds and the Western Wall will end up in Jerusalem. Both make a commitment that in 1 year they open up the holy sites to visits by the other sides, if its feasible.

(4) Settlements:
Some settlements on the West Bank are kept by Israel, but equal land is given to Palestine in exchange, such as the land bridge from Gaza to the West Bank and some of the heavily Arab neighbors on the border.

(5) Terrorism & violence:
Both sides sign a commit to the security of each other's nation and to combat terrorism. In addition both agree to recognize and respect each other's sovernity. Both sides sign trade agreements and establish embassies in each other's capitals.

(6) Arab Recognition:
The Arab league has stated they would agree to do this. Formally recognize Israel, lift the sanctions against Israel, accept from and establish embassies in Israel and establish trade agreements with Israel. They also accept an Israeli representative to the Arab League. With an Arab population of 20%, I think they qualify. Obviously the representative would be an Israeli Arab MK!

(7) Israeli Arabs:
Force them to make the choice of which country to become a citizen of: Israel or Palestine. If they choose Palestine then they are required to move to Palestine at their own expense. If they choose Israel then they must formally file and accept Israeli citizenship.

Please no coming back with anti-semitic comments, genocidial talk. the plight of the Palestinians, etc. It is about solutions not about past problems!

[Chancellor]

Quote by: GHook93 The main stopping blocks are: (1) Refugee situation, (2) Jerusalem/East Jerusalem, (3) The holy sites, (4) the Settlements, (5) Terrorism, (6) Acceptance by the Arab League (something they said they would do) & (7) Arab Israelis. (1) Refugee Problem: The law of return has to be restricted to the future Palestinian state. No rational country would take on millions of self-proclaimed enemies of the state. Israel and the West would compensate these refugees to help them get on their feet.

The so-called "refugees" should be given the choice to move (at their own expense) into the Palestinian state, move to some other Arab country (or, since most of the refugees are in Lebanon, to stay in that country) or return to Israel (with no right to whatever property they may have owned in the past) and become Israeli citizens.

(2) Jerusalem: Jerusalem status should be up for a vote. Each section of Jerusalem votes if they want to be part of Jerusalem or Al Quds. I really don't know the demographics of the areas, but I assume the Jews pick Jerusalem and the Arabs will pick Al Quds. Each side compensates the displaced population when the vote results are determined.

I disagree. Jerusalem should be solely under Israeli control.

(3) Holy sites: I will admit I don't know all of them. But I assume the dome on the rock mosque will end up in Al Quds and the Western Wall will end up in Jerusalem. Both make a commitment that in 1 year they open up the holy sites to visits by the other sides, if its feasible.

Holy sites in the Palestinian state would be under Palestinian control and the ones in Israel would be under Israeli control.

(4) Settlements: Some settlements on the West Bank are kept by Israel, but equal land is given to Palestine in exchange, such as the land bridge from Gaza to the West Bank and some of the heavily Arab neighbors on the border.

I disagree. While I am in favor of creating a Palestinian state, I think it should not include the West Bank at all.

(5) Terrorism & violence: Both sides sign a commit to the security of each other's nation and to combat terrorism. In addition both agree to recognize and respect each other's sovernity. Both sides sign trade agreements and establish embassies in each other's capitals.

This is reasonable but you know the Palestinians will never keep their end of the agreement.

(6) Arab Recognition: The Arab league has stated they would agree to do this. Formally recognize Israel, lift the sanctions against Israel, accept from and establish embassies in Israel and establish trade agreements with Israel. They also accept an Israeli representative to the Arab League. With an Arab population of 20%, I think they qualify. Obviously the representative would be an Israeli Arab MK!

I don't think Israel should be part of the Arab League. I think the Arab League should be disbanded and a "league" based solely on region (e.g. the Middle East) should be established.

(7) Israeli Arabs: Force them to make the choice of which country to become a citizen of: Israel or Palestine. If they choose Palestine then they are required to move to Palestine at their own expense. If they choose Israel then they must formally file and accept Israeli citizenship.

Agreed.

What I propose for a Palestinian state is an area of land including Gaza but larger. The northern border would be just above Ashdod, east to BetShemesh, south to Beersheba, west to the border of Sinai (unless Egypt would agree to give up some of the Sinai Penninsula). In the alternative, I would propose a northwestern state going from the ancient city of Caesarea on the south to the Lebanon border on the north and going eastward to Nazareth (a vertical line going through Nazareth northward to the Lebanon border and southward to a point due east of Caesarea.

[Fangrim]

Quote by: GHook93 I know everyone has an opinion on it. The anti-semites usually start with that Israel shouldn't have been crearted. That is moot, since it is created and nothing short of nuking Israel will change that (which would cause Israel to nuke half the Middle East if it came to that). Also a single state seems out of the question, since both sides would more likely kill each other - think Japanese fighting fish when you remove the barrier. Status quo is unacceptable. So here is what I think. The main stopping blocks are: (1) Refugee situation, (2) Jerusalem/East Jerusalem, (3) The holy sites, (4) the Settlements, (5) Terrorism, (6) Acceptance by the Arab League (something they said they would do) & (7) Arab Israelis.

The main stopping block is the existence of Israel at all.

That Israel exists NOW is hardly a determining factor as to whether the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the abolition of Israel (Just as the current non-existence of a Palestinian state is not a determining factor as to whether the solution to the problem is its creation).

You are arbitrarily deciding that destroying Israel is not a solution, based on a premise in affirming the status quo, yet in regards to the creation of the Palestinian state you reject the status quo.

I suggest that a better, alternative solution to the problem is the forceful occupation of Israel, and the exportation of Zionists and resistant Jews to willing countries.

If no country is willing to harbor them, the Jews are summarily executed or imprisoned.

Problem solved.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Chancellor The so-called "refugees" should be given the choice to move (at their own expense) into the Palestinian state, move to some other Arab country (or, since most of the refugees are in Lebanon, to stay in that country) or return to Israel (with no right to whatever property they may have owned in the past) and become Israeli citizens.

If the Arab states were going to let them assimilate into their countries they would have done it already instead of letting them rotten in "concentration camps." Israel can't take on anymore self-proclaimed enemies of the state. Therefore, Palestine is really the only option!

I disagree. Jerusalem should be solely under Israeli control.

I doubt any agreement will ever be made without Al Quds becoming a reality!

Holy sites in the Palestinian state would be under Palestinian control and the ones in Israel would be under Israeli control.

Fair enough

I disagree. While I am in favor of creating a Palestinian state, I think it should not include the West Bank at all.

Arafat turned a Palestinian State on 97% of the lands. Unless the Palestinian receive equal lands, then I doubt they would take anything less than 100%!

This is reasonable but you know the Palestinians will never keep their end of the agreement.

The same was said about Egypt and Jordan, but that appears to working out. Prosperity breeds peace. Poverty breeds civil disorder. A free Palestinian State would lead to prosperity! See Dubai!

I don't think Israel should be part of the Arab League. I think the Arab League should be disbanded and a "league" based solely on region (e.g. the Middle East) should be established.

Not reality the Arab will always want a part of kinship organization.

Agreed.

At least we agree on something!

What I propose for a Palestinian state is an area of land including Gaza but larger. The northern border would be just above Ashdod, east to BetShemesh, south to Beersheba, west to the border of Sinai (unless Egypt would agree to give up some of the Sinai Penninsula). In the alternative, I would propose a northwestern state going from the ancient city of Caesarea on the south to the Lebanon border on the north and going eastward to Nazareth (a vertical line going through Nazareth northward to the Lebanon border and southward to a point due east of Caesarea.

Seems like a decent idea, but less than 5% the lands areas of exchanged are in dispute. This would create a mess in which they could never come to an agreement on.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Fangrim The main stopping block is the existence of Israel at all. That Israel exists NOW is hardly a determining factor as to whether the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the abolition of Israel (Just as the current non-existence of a Palestinian state is not a determining factor as to whether the solution to the problem is its creation). You are arbitrarily deciding that destroying Israel is not a solution, based on a premise in affirming the status quo, yet in regards to the creation of the Palestinian state you reject the status quo. I suggest that a better, alternative solution to the problem is the forceful occupation of Israel, and the exportation of Zionists and resistant Jews to willing countries. If no country is willing to harbor them, the Jews are summarily executed or imprisoned. Problem solved.

LOL this is not a solution! You can dream of your 2nd Holocaust all you want, but in reality its the anti-semites wetdream. Same racist wetdream of the KKK starting a holy war in which all the Blacks, Latinos, Asians and Jews can be killed or expells from the US.

If you want to talk genocide there are all white power forums. If you want to talk solutions, then come up with one.

History is history. The Jews are there. Get over it.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 LOL this is not a solution! You can dream of your 2nd Holocaust all you want, but in reality its the anti-semites wetdream.

The post you're responding to was pathetic and sad. that's all I'm saying for now.

Grandpa h.

[JaneDoe321]

Can we just put a bubble over the region and wait for the smoke to clear?

I don't think *any* amount of external interference is going to fix this one. The harder "we" try, the harder "they" fight.

Maybe we can terraform the country and add some layers, so they can all exist at the same X,Y coordinates on the map, just add a "Z" factor, and maybe rotate on the decade or something so they can access the shared holy sites that NOBODY is interested in sharing.

For the record, I don't think I'm an anti-Semite, before that gets tossed out there.

[grandpa]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 Can we just put a bubble over the region and wait for the smoke to clear? I don't think *any* amount of external interference is going to fix this one.

Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait and see. I don't think American interference will stop until the bitter end of the empire. This isn't to say I think it will continue forever, but the Iraq War is rather instructive. Many people still support the war because, "Oh well, it's our obligation now. We gotta help the Iraqis." Well, the best way to do that would be to leave and perhaps give some reparations for all the misery we contributed to over the years. It's not that we can't have everybody head for home, but it's not what the American presence is intended for.

Grandpa h.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa The post you're responding to was pathetic and sad. that's all I'm saying for now. Grandpa h.

Come on Grandpa I know you have an opinion on the solution! What is your solution?

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Come on Grandpa I know you have an opinion on the solution! What is your solution?

I basically gave it with the Iraq example:
Leave and perhaps give some reparations for all the misery we contributed to over the years. That's not "the solution" per se -- but -- as far as I'm concerned, it's the only legitimate course of action.

Grandpa h.

[GHook93]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 Can we just put a bubble over the region and wait for the smoke to clear?

If only it was that easy

I don't think *any* amount of external interference is going to fix this one. The harder "we" try, the harder "they" fight.

Interference is need. The UNRWA is needed, because the PA, Syria, Lebanon & Jordon insist on keeping the Palestinians in refugee ("concentration") camps and not letting them gain employment or access to healthcare or other social services. They rely on this assistance, which is primarily funded by the US <Shocker>!

Side note: I can somewhat understand the motive for the Arab states keeping the Palestinians in concentration camps, but why has the Palestinian Authority not eliminated the concentration camps in West Bank and Gaza. They have received billions of dollars in foreign aid to make this happen, but not one has been dismanteled. Why does the PA voluntarily choose to hold their people back? FFT

We also need to intervene to make sure both sides at least stay somewhat committed to the peace process. Its a hotbed situation that needs a solutions and we shouldn't let it spiral into complete chaos

Maybe we can terraform the country and add some layers, so they can all exist at the same X,Y coordinates on the map, just add a "Z" factor, and maybe rotate on the decade or something so they can access the shared holy sites that NOBODY is interested in sharing.

2 states = 1 solution!

For the record, I don't think I'm an anti-Semite, before that gets tossed out there.

Your answer seems to affirm your not, but glad to know!

[grandpa]

GHook, What's your take on the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in
general, and the Sabra-Shatila massacre in particular?

Grandpa h.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa GHook, What's your take on the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in general, and the Sabra-Shatila massacre in particular? Grandpa h.

Different trend!

[Court463]

Whats the Sabra-Shatila massacre?

And this problem is so out of hand that WE can't really do much about it, and if they really want to survive in this world than they are going to have to solve their own differences.

In reality though the state of israel should not have been created, the U.N. virtually stole all that land from the palastinians. But what can we do about it is the question?

[GHook93]

Quote by: Court463 Whats the Sabra-Shatila massacre?

If you want to start another thread I will educate you on this. People only look to what Israel didn't do and blame them. They ignore what the perpetrators did. And after the massacre what Israel did. But like I said that is another thread

And this problem is so out of hand that WE can't really do much about it, and if they really want to survive in this world than they are going to have to solve their own differences.

No, international pressure must be exerted!

In reality though the state of israel should not have been created,

Like I said it happened get over it. That is not a solution to bring up history. The situation is in the here and now; therefore, a solution can only happen in the here and now.

But what can we do about it is the question?

Yet you answered nothing!

[Court463]

What does exseted mean in that context?

And I really am not sure on conclusion thats why I didn't answer my own question. But I'll answer it when I have more time.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: GHook93 If the Arab states were going to let them assimilate into their countries they would have done it already instead of letting them rotten in "concentration camps." Israel can't take on anymore self-proclaimed enemies of the state. Therefore, Palestine is really the only option!

And what does that say about these other Arab countries that wouldn't let them assimilate into their countries? What does that say about the Palestinians that these other countries wouldn't let them assimilate?

I doubt any agreement will ever be made without Al Quds becoming a reality!

Maybe.

Arafat turned a Palestinian State on 97% of the lands. Unless the Palestinian receive equal lands, then I doubt they would take anything less than 100%!

There was no Palestinian state and there still isn't one. The Palestinians are going to have to compromise to get a nation of their own. They're not going to be able to continue with the status quo forever.

The same was said about Egypt and Jordan, but that appears to working out. Prosperity breeds peace. Poverty breeds civil disorder. A free Palestinian State would lead to prosperity! See Dubai!

And as long as the Palestinian leadership fails to perform its responsibilities toward its people - providing for the basic necessities of life in particular - it will never be ready to take on the responsibilities of nationhood.

Not reality the Arab will always want a part of kinship organization.

Perhaps.

At least we agree on something!

And who says miracles don't happen?

Seems like a decent idea, but less than 5% the lands areas of exchanged are in dispute. This would create a mess in which they could never come to an agreement on.

Actually, in my two proposals, both sides would be giving up quite a bit. In my northern proposal, I have the Palestinians giving up both Gaza and the West Bank and Israel giving up the entire northwestern corner of the country. In my Gaza proposal, I have the Palestinians giving up the West Bank and Israel giving up a large section of land north, east and south of Gaza.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Court463 Whats the Sabra-Shatila massacre? And this problem is so out of hand that WE can't really do much about it, and if they really want to survive in this world than they are going to have to solve their own differences. In reality though the state of israel should not have been created, the U.N. virtually stole all that land from the palastinians. But what can we do about it is the question?

Actually, the land belonged to Britain, who took it from the Ottoman Turks. It was Britain's to do with as it pleased. There has never been a nation called "Palestine." The region may have been referred to by that name (presumably a variation on the ancient kingdom of Philistia, whose people the Philistines had what is now the Gaza strip and a little of the area around it) but there was never a geopolitical entity of Palestinians.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: GHook93 Israel/Palestine Solution ?

Peaceful political enterprise is the fundament for both states.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Rainbow Peaceful political enterprise is the fundament for both states.

Of course, "peaceful political enterprise" tends to mean oppression.

Grandpa h.